S1E3 - Ze Giggle

Um, hello and welcome to TarDis. Rubbish, where our brains are bigger on the inside, but still can't contain our rubbish opinions about Doctor who. Today is all about the giggle, the third of the 60th anniversary specials, which saw the debut of Shudi Gatwa as the 15th Doctor, we think. Pretty sure, pretty sure that's what happened. There was a lot going on. I'm Josh, and joining me today, he is the host of the secret origin of Mint Condition and the reason that this podcast and trash compactor, a Star wars podcast, both exist. Welcome, James.

Thank you for having me back.

And he is a frequent contributor to both secret origins and trash compactor. Welcome, John.

Hey, everyone.

And my longtime friend and even longertime Doctor who fan. Welcome, guy.

Hey, guys. It's the white beard. Really helps sell the fact that I've been a fan for years.

All right, so the giggle, there's a lot in this one. Let's start with overall thoughts. John, we texted a little, so I'd like for you to start off.

Oh, boy. This was one hell of an episode. I enjoyed it so much. I was watching it a few times over the span of two days just to get it all in, but I absolutely loved it. I absolutely loved it. I knew that going in with a title like the giggle, it was going to be like, all right, he's going for the silly, but that's going to be the subterfuge to get us right in the gut. And I thought it was going to be a little, maybe darker or sadder. I don't think I've ever smiled as much as I did, both throughout the episode and for the last act, the last 15 minutes or so, where I was surprised by everything that happened. I was just like, this is not what I was expecting and I am absolutely delighted. And now I'm supercharged for the next Doctor. I am delighted as to what they did with everything. And it's like they gave us, well, to jump sort of to the end concept, like the idea of coming home. It felt like coming home, but also getting a new journey to start as well. And I don't know how they did that. That's two things that you don't usually get in one episode, is the idea of excitement about the new adventures of a show and also feeling like I came home and I love this and I'm also getting all the nostalgia, but I'm not. And I didn't walk away with this grand feel of sadness and loss. And maybe that's what they were trying to do this time was let's not, maybe this time, not quite traumatize the audience, but give them some real stuff to look forward to and also look back on. I don't know, I guess that's my general sense. But, yeah, I loved it.

No, I love that that's how it hit you. And speaking of the title, the giggle, I can't help but feel it has a double meaning. I feel like it's kind of Russell T. Davies giggling a little bit with the by generation trick that he pulled. I don't know, guy, what about you? Overall thoughts?

Overall thoughts was eleven out of ten. And I had the same feeling that John had in that it felt like this was a wrap up of 60 years worth of history. For me, it was like a wrap up and a culmination and it came to a head and then it was just a kind of closure. It was really a great little button on all this other stuff. And now we're starting, not just because with every regeneration, we basically start kind of like at a new point. This just seemed like closure. And the doctor is now able to. After all this time, he figured out what it was that he was trying to get to, why it is that he did what he did and does what he does.

And now it's time for a little.

Bit of a me time while the doctor continues on. It was really well done. Some of these regenerations, I've cried, I'm going to miss you. And I just thought it was a little closure. I thought it was great closure after 60 years.

Yeah, it was great.

It was great. And I'm looking forward now. I'm looking forward even more to seeing what they do and how they switch it and looking at the trailer and the clips that I've seen coming up for the Christmas special, this feels so. In a good way. In a good way.

James, your overall.

Know this episode conflicted, say. But when I start saying that, it's not because I didn't like it. While the Doctor was having this bi generational thing, I was sort of having a beside myself moment as a person who's a fan, but also a person who. And again, I'm not a professional writer, but a person who likes to create. The two of us were having a conversation about how this episode went because I loved it as a fan. But the idea of the regeneration of the Doctor, I feel like, and we've talked a few times on this podcast about the idea of children and how people watch it and stuff, the idea of the regeneration, the Doctor kind of gets you used to the idea that change is part of life. And sometimes things have to end, and that's just part of life. Like, whether you like it or not, something's going to change, something's going to end. And also, it's the idea that Doctor who, as we spoke about, gives you something new for the time or something new to get used to. Like, doctor who, changing lets you know that things have to end, but also that things can begin and you have to get used to new things. But now we got the best of both worlds. And I hate to use this word because I think it's used so much, but fan service, I don't want to say that word for it, but I can't think of a better term for kind of what we got here because you get to keep David Tennant and you get the new Doctor. You get shooty as the 15th Doctor. And I don't quite know how I feel about that, but that being said, and Josh, we talked about this. I'm a comic book reader. I love comic books. And this is not new to me, this concept, because I've seen social media stuff and people are either in love with it or they're in an uproar. And I'm like, this has happened for a long time. In Marvel, DC, and any other comic book, there's an established character who's had a whole long history of continuity and what you think they are. And then a writer comes along and they introduce something new and it either clicks or it doesn't, and then sometimes it stays and sometimes it goes away. I mean, JMS, one of our favorite writers here, creator of Babylon Five, as everyone always likes to point out, like, he came aboard Spiderman years ago and he changed the origin. He was like, Spiderman didn't get bitten by a radioactive spider and become Spiderman. He became Spiderman because that Spider was meant to bite him by destiny and transfer its power over into Spider man. And people were like, that was amazing. And some people are like, you've changed the is so doctor who. Being able to do this now where you get to keep a doctor and you also get a doctor, I'm fine with as a fan opinion, but that whole kind of closure, and you only get this new doctor that you have to get used to creatively, I'm still kind of wrestling with that, but not in a way where I think it's terrible. I'm always on board for the ride. I mean, I've said many times on secret origins and trash compactor, having read and been part of pop culture for so long. Just show me something new. Try something new out. If it fails, fine. If it doesn't, great. But I like to see someone trying stuff than just giving me the same old stories. Josh, I know I rambled on there, so I don't even know if I answered your question, but those are my feelings kind of about it.

You answered it perfectly, and I actually think you articulated my feelings almost exactly about the special. Again, I didn't not like it. Well, let me back up for a second. Saturday morning, I woke up with a horrible stomach flu. I had the shivers. I had a fever. It was really the opposite of what I thought my Saturday was going to be. I went into Saturday thinking, oh, great, I'm going to watch new doctor who. I'm going to see new Doctor. It's going to be great. Instead, I woke up and I felt awful. So when I watched it, I was struggling. I was like, I've got to watch this. I've got to watch this. And so my first viewing was suboptimal, but I watched it again. And, yeah, James, I think you really hit the nail on the head. One of the things that I love about Doctor who is that it does teach you that everything ends and it's sad, but things change and life moves. You know, one of the reasons I think Doctor who has lasted so long is because built into it is that seed of reinvention, like the idea that Doctor who is a show where your favorite show is going to be canceled and this new show is going to saunter off, masquerading as the old show that you loved, and that reinvention is kind of a part of it. And so it's like, you definitely get the sense that Shudigatwa is the Doctor. I don't think he was upstaged. I think it was risky to have him and David Tennant, the most popular Doctor in modern who and the brand new Doctor without a track record, the unknown quantity, share the screen for so long. But I think shooty got what really, you know, made it his own. I thought it was really interesting. You really got the sense of seeing shooty and David Tennant on screen at the same time. David Tennant really felt like the older Doctor. He felt like an old man on the screen.

Yeah.

Which is funny, because I'm so used to thinking of him as, like, young and fresh faced, but he really felt like an old man.

And it was commented on.

Yeah, they had to go through, one of us is older.

Okay, old man, time to get out. I'm younger.

Than you. He's younger than you. Okay, kid, get out.

So, about that. Let's talk about the mechanics of the bi regeneration. What actually happened? Because the visual language, what we just saw visually made it seem like it was like a clone. He literally split the TArdIS, literally emerged from the other TardIs, but in dialogue, it seemed like this was a future incarnation pulled into this moment. I'm not sure exactly what happened. I'm not sure that it necessarily matters, because, again, for all intents and purposes, in terms of the real world and not the world of the actual show, the regeneration happened. We have a new Doctor. Shudigat was the new star of the show. So for all intents and purposes, it doesn't really matter what the in universe mechanics were. But I am curious, because I've read online, a lot of people are confused about exactly what happened. Like, was it a clone situation? Was it a time travel situation? Was it shenanigans from the toy maker? What are your thoughts on what we actually saw?

I think that last part is what they really went with, because they drove in hard. And before we get to the toy maker, who I think Neil Patrick Harris, I was like, okay, is he going to ham it up too much or too little? It was like, oh, no, he did it perfectly. He was just the right level we needed for that kind of role and villain. But the idea of play, the idea of rules that are outside of our universe, which they again started in the second episode, which is being on the edge of the universe, which. What in the world is that? Well, it's some sort of mathematics we'll get to in a couple of centuries. So we're already way out of what we can actually conceive of right now in imagining both outside the universe and then because of his cleverness and the salt opening the way to this thing from nearly 60 years ago, which was on the other side of the underverse, something we don't even know, I have no idea what that part of the mythos is. And it sounds like they only did it very briefly early on in the show, defying any understanding of physics that we have. So, just with all that said, it's a toy maker. It is a realm of play. It defies all rules. So if we're going to try to apply all the rules we know, we have to take into consideration. But wait, there are no rules except for the rules of play, which are this entirely other thing. So whether it's going to be a traditional regeneration that maybe just brought somebody out of time or is it a cloning. Those are our current universe concepts. And this is the remnant energy of the. Well, it's first is the energy of toy maker, and then the second Tardis, the remnant energy. So I think it's something that we sort of have to accept as a quantum wave and particle at the same time. Seemingly contradictory, but possible. And I, as a viewer, am actually. I don't know, this is sort of the way I watch shows now, if the story gets me, and I feel like, oh, I really enjoyed that, and I can tell that they're trying, I say, yeah, this works. This is something totally new. It's probably unique to this situation. You'd have to have the toy maker and outside of the universe being involved, I don't think they're going to be doing it repeatedly. It just sort of works as a completely side notion, something that was a myth, something that maybe the Time Lords never do. And remember those Time Lords, there was a 13 regeneration limit, all this other stuff, and that was because the Time Lords probably controlled regeneration and maybe they were keeping the information on what it was very locked down. That's a cool way you can write that, too. So that gives all the future writers a lot of leeway to say, like, yeah, we're going to play with this for the next 60 years.

Yeah, I was just going to add to you, John, I watched the BBC official wrap up show afterwards. I don't know if you guys caught that, but the hosts on there had, like, Russell T Davies gave them some information and he popped in for a few pre recorded clips about the bi regeneration. And I don't quite know the mechanics he was trying to explain, but apparently this is something that can happen with Time Lords, and also because it happened here, it had a cascading effect down through all his previous regenerations, which he said is why Tom Baker is old, and the fourth doctor in the 50th regeneration is what they're implying. That when Matt Smith met Tom Baker, that was the fourth doctor, is what their little group of people were talking about. And Russell T Davis can obviously change the same point, but it's very confusing. We had the guy there trying to explain it and he didn't quite say what was happening. Except this is, I guess, a new form of regeneration that now is open to all previous incarnations.

Go ahead.

No, I was just going to say, and I didn't watch them, but I don't know if you guys did, but they had what these TaRDiS clips, like, these shorter five minute things. The previous Doctor, I didn't watch them. But he said all of those are, apparently they're older version of the Doctor because of this regeneration thing that split off. So I don't know. That doesn't help our conversation. But this is what Russell Davies is implying.

If we can get behind the Watcher being the Doctor all along and melding with the Doctor after a traumatic fall from a radio telescope and merging choc, in the last Pertwee story, planet of spiders, Planet of the Spider, if we can get behind two Doctors being side by side and then just kind of morphing into one, why are we having, I see some part of the Doctor who fandom having conniption that the Doctor has regenerated into two. Why is he split? And to just piggyback on that, there's that line saying, basically they're talking to each other saying, you go heal yourself because I am better, because you are going to go do this. So my thinking is that this is not a Doctor pulled from the future. This is a brand new Doctor who has the memories and will have the memories. As the 14th Doctor gathers his memories and will have the memories in his head, he'll just remember them as memories. And he remembers that he did this, he went away and he got better.

And, guy, I think you're getting on what the episode and maybe what this entire 60th anniversary was really about, right there was about the healing because they started off early on with, again, some really cool nostalgia. The Avengers Tower, I mean, excuse me, the unit tower, Kate Lethbridge Stewart. And just the reunion of that Mel, all these people, in the sense that set up the groundwork for the idea of coming home. And then, Donna, early on mentioning that I was in your head, I was there. You are staggering along, wearing yourself out. Maybe that's why your old face came back. And then he immediately diverts. Because that's classic 10th, 14th Doctor is to imagine him actually in therapy. The therapist would probably be going crazy like, well, you stopped diverting. That's what that doctor does. And this was about completely transforming that mindset to that endpoint where the 15th Doctor comes in, which I thought was also hilarious. If we're going to nitpick about anything, it was that when they split and only one has pants, they both still had a white shirt. So there is an inconsistency that the script supervisor missed.

No, it was a t shirt.

Yeah, I thought it was the undershirt.

And then the under had the button down shirt.

Yeah.

Okay. All right. There you go. Is that we now know the limits of birgeneration does not apply to clothing. So that is established canon. Now, the whole point, as you sort of said, was encapsulated in this one line. He said, I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab. Out of order. I sat there and he was like, I was shoved back into my chair like those old Maxwell audio cassette commercials. It just blew me away. And I thought, that's so mean. The doctor's always been running. The doctor's always been running from something. And each writer and showrunner has had their own take on what the Doctor is running from externally and internally. And this was sort of the idea of, yeah, you know what? I think if I were coming to this show, I can very much see Russell Davis being like, dear Lord, we've just gone through a collective trauma. Globally, we're still really messed up in many ways. Getting more messed up trauma seems to be the theme of so much modern Sci-Fi we've talked about this, reviewing episodes of Star Trek, Picard, New Orleans discovery, all those shows seem to be really doing that, but I'm seeing it everywhere. And this was like, instead of just talking about being traumatized, this was like, yeah, you fixed yourself, but it's a process we're doing out of order. So I'm going to give you a hug, and it's okay. And then the 10th, 14th Doctor realizes in those end moments with Donna's family, this is what he's been fighting for, because he is like, what the hell? Why are we the Pandora, the time war, all of this, what the hell? I love that line. What the hell? Which is, yeah, why is all this happening? And why are you involved in all of them and never getting to sit down for a moment? And that's what I took away, was that the sadness wasn't nearly as profound as it was in the past of leaving companions. Because, listen, David Ten's 14th doctor is there hanging out with Donna. She's mortal, she's human. He's now a billion years old. How that calculates out is interesting, but realistically, probably centuries of remembered experience, and she's going to die. The family is going to pass on. Like, everything is going to change. But he's there, able to enjoy those moments now. He's able to enjoy a family. And yeah, you know what? And he says, I'm the happiest I've ever been. And, you know, he's not dumb. He knows that that too shall pass. Doctor who's not missing that concept. But it's almost a very sort of like, again, it's almost repeated viewpoint of slow stop for a moment, live in the moment, knowing that there'll be more adventures to come, more problems to come. You can have these beautiful moments with people and not worry about everything else or when it's going to end. That was my personal takeaway, which was just, yeah, you get to do it. And maybe he does that. Maybe he hangs around for ten or 20 years. It could be the earthbound adventures like they did previously with Doctors of this Doctor. They could do some audio dramas that are more limited in scope if they chose, but it would be the, like, yeah, he's chilling and really working on himself and really fixing set. Now the 15th Doctor is out there going wild, having crazy journeys, adventures and fun. And almost in a way that gets a real reset to where it's not just running away from something, but running towards new things. And that was why I thought, thematically, this episode worked because it did all of that. And I think writing it that way is why I'm so damn excited for what comes next. And we know that they dropped a hint in this episode as to what comes next. What was the he who hides. He was hidden.

Who waits?

Who he waits.

The one who waits.

Who is hiding from the toy maker. Nope. Not even I was going to go up against that. So. All right, we know something big is coming. We know something big is coming and we get that set up. But now, even though it's ominous, it doesn't feel like it's tragic. There's been more of a sense of tragedy. And before I get off my long soapbox in this, I had read in the lead up to this, Russell Davies has always been really good at writing about loss, but I know from articles about him he's experienced a lot of loss since his time in Doctor who. Some very personal loss, I think things that we all go through to one extent, but it sounds like it really was really tough. And I think that this writing shows added life experience to coming back to a show and being like, yeah, and this is how we're going to go forward. And that's why I think we really are in for a real treat with this new season. And, yeah, shooty. Got one. Phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. Just in the 15 minutes we got. Really exciting. And yeah, I haven't watched any trailers or previews. Happy to be spoiled on them, but I'm happy to go in on Christmas and just experience whatever it's going to be.

He also seemed very, I think, joyful in a way that previous incarnations of the Doctor, obviously, they all have moments of happiness and joy and levity and play, but he seemed not so weighed down, I think, because of that healing that 14 goes through and then bestows upon him. I also got the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, guys, I don't mean to speak for something I don't really know about, but he seems overtly queer coded. From everything I've seen. Not only is he joyous, but he's joyously queer, which I think is fantastic. And I also think shows a progression. Like you were saying, john, from Russell T Davies personally, because, you know, when he brought the show back, there's a reading that the nice doctor, having survived the time war, you can read that as survivor's guilt as a gay man surviving the AIDS crisis. Right? And I think to go from there, 20 years later, now he's writing, it seems to me, from what we've seen, which, albeit, hasn't been that much, but he's writing the Doctor as, like, a furiously, gloriously, visibly queer character, which I think is beautiful.

I mean, when he took up the mallet and before he split the Tardis into two, he had a very gay moment when he's like, let's stand back. I was like, oh, hey, girl. It seems there has been, though, a collective, I'll say it again, a massive conniption in some areas of fandom that how dare the Doctor become a queer character, or even overtly gay mean. For those of you who saw the trailer, it opens up with Chewy in the nightclub, dancing with his arms above his head in a white tank top, swaying to some music. And that's when he meets Ruby Sunday. And I was like. It screamed, yes, sure, yes. That's who he is. He's not human. So your narrow minded mentality has nothing to do with this alien who has experienced out of his mouth billions of years of experiences. So why don't you sit back, Ken, and sit back, Karen, and just let somebody knows what they're doing, run the show. And you just pipe down, please, with your narrow minded bigness, and enjoy the show. Because even the Doctor. What would the Doctor do? The Doctor embraced Rose rose noble temple without batting an eyelash. Yet on this side of the screen, people's heads are melting off their flipping bodies. So is it queer bathing?

I don't think it's queer bathing.

I just think it's a natural progression. I think, why not? After 60 years of it varied this way, why can't it suddenly veer a little bit this way. Why can't it be more fluid? I agree.

Yeah, well, remember that there was even a reaction against Matt Smith because, a, he was too young.

Right.

There was a lot of pushback on Matt Smith being too young. And again, he's one of my absolute favorite doctors. And because I wouldn't say there was early Queer coding, but there was definitely some pushing of boundaries that he wasn't following human binary, sexual and gender mores because he was the doctor, he was beyond and encompassed that it was these other things. So he sort of played with little bits here and there, and that was because he was just out there. So to limit those, like, biologically two hearts, it's not meant to be this isolated thing. But that was a change off of the history. Even Christopher Eccleston was a bit of a change as they were going in a younger direction. He was darker as a doctor, but also had this whimsy tomb. And then when I think about all this, they introduced Captain Jack with the 9th Doctor, and that's 2006, and he is gay in the show, but he's specifically, I think the word was omnisexual. He would sleep with anybody who was hot, any species, any gender.

It was just like, okay, if they're.

Hot and I'm into them, we're going for it. Both the 9th and the 10th had to keep him. They were like, okay, can you stop? Can you not hit on them? We are trying to save the universe right now. And that was fun. But it was also a very 2006 portrayal, which was, okay, we're going to get somebody who generally presents as gay on screen, and it's going to be like a very specific version of that. They're going to be gay, and it's going to be about sex. It's going to be about all of that. And we've come a long way since. Even those years go back to the, some of the first characters you see on tv to where now it is not only something that is just sort of there and part of culture, but it's people who are not just tied down by tragedy. Any character in the was because of the HIV epidemic in the alts. It was sort of like, well, we're here, but we're fighting, but it's really difficult now. It's like, we're going to have a great time with this, and we're going to share with you what our experiences are and just enjoy it. So the first scene being dancing. Yeah, go for it. Because that's what we want for literally every group of people everywhere. Is to get to the point where it's just, yeah, this is who I am. I'm going to celebrate it and smile. Like, this is where it is. To see Russell Davies obviously went on that journey, like, in terms of. As a writer, to go from, like, this is a portrayal of this. Know, he did queer as folk. Completely different portrayal of lgbt life later on. Years and years. About five, six years ago, very different. And now there's another, I think, another show similarly cucumber. It's a sin. All different perspectives.

And now it's this and it's a sin.

That's right. And now this is this. And I'm like, yeah, I'm here for it. But that's what I love about watching a writer's journey, is that they're not the same writer they were. And the danger with bringing somebody back to a show, and I think we've seen it in other shows before, is that you go back to the old. You go back the tried and the true, you bring back the old showrunner, and all they do is go in their old bag of tricks and they do the same thing over and Terry, anyone? So it happens. And that's why I think these episodes worked, is because it was a writer who had and a showrunner who had clearly taken new perspectives, new experiences, and brought that in while holding on to the old. And also his conflicted view on human nature, which I think that Davies and Moffat both really mastered, because you have Peter Capaldi's doctor giving that brilliant speech about humanity and basically how awful we can be and how we are. That made its way into this episode, and it was there. It was like, yeah, the toy maker. The toy maker set this up, but the lines on that were absolutely brutal. They were brutal about what we are as human beings. I mean, I think the line was something like, don't think you have an excuse. He said, you may be clever and brilliant and everything else, but you are savage and relentless. All that anger, the lies, the righteousness, that's human. That's who you are. And again, that was like a shake me moment. I was like, yeah, no, that's the point. Because for all the joy we're experiencing with the episode, it was reminding us this is where we're at now. Don't shy away from it. And to all the people criticizing, like, oh, I can't deal with a different portrayal of the doctor. That's what that's for, is to say. Like, you all think you're right. Everybody's obsessed with thinking they're right. And this is the whole opposite. Yeah, we love to think we're right, but I think the best part comes when you realize, like, maybe there's something I missed that can further enrich the experience and it can go, wow. That's sometimes the best of Sci-Fi shows is that you think you got one thing and all of a sudden you're blown away by something you never realized you were understanding was completely different. That, for me, is a lot of fun.

Yeah, well, that's actually something, I think the last 20 minutes and the momentous nature of this episode, I think overshadows what was actually a really good episode in terms of the premise and the themes and stuff. I think, John, what you were talking about, the doctor's speech about humanity and mean. Don't think you're off the mean. This is you. I very much read that as Russell T. Davies reaction to what we all saw during the pandemic and has only continued. I mean, arguably it started earlier than the pandemic. It was just sort of how, you know, we've all kind of gone a little crazy and we're all in our own little information bubbles and there's a self righteous streak. And I think everyone has just kind of lost their minds a little bit. And we have.

People are speaking like they're tweeting.

Speaking like they're tweeting. Yeah. Something has happened collectively where we've all just sort of forgotten that we are members of a larger community that needs to work together sometimes to make the whole thing work for everybody. I don't know, I thought that that was a very. You could feel the fury, I think Russell T. Davies felt or feels from what he's seen happen in the world the last few years. And I thought tying that in with John Logie Baird and the invention of television, I think is such a fantastic hook for a doctor who episode. And tying that into mass media and how that has fueled our collective undoing, I thought was know, really clever and really potent and wonderfully done. And that's something that both Davies and Moffat were so good at. They have these brilliant ideas that could, on their own, take center stage, but they're sort of overshadowed because of all the other amazing ideas that are sort of crammed into the episode. And that's sort of how I felt with this. I feel like that on its own could have sustained the episode if you got rid of the regeneration and the anniversary nature of it and, God, it was creepy. The people turned into marionettes.

So let's talk about little baby dolls were creepy too.

Yeah, no, it was properly scary. Clever doctor who. So let's talk about the toy maker as a villain and also Neil Patrick Harris's performance. How do we feel about the to?

I hope he comes. Yeah, he's so much fun. He didn't necessarily chew the scenery. He did nod, and I appreciated that. I just loved every flipping minute he was on screen, even to the point where when the doctor and Donna were looking through the window of the toy shop and he was just ducking behind, he was playing. The minute the doctor sees he's playing, every time he interacts with anybody, he's playing. He's playing with them. He's playing with the gentleman who buys the Stooky bill. He plays with him. And he plays with him in a not so subtle kind of being a little racist way too, saying, you're not used to these climbs. I'm so sorry about the rain. You're probably used to warmer climbs. And he's like, I was born just like 10 miles from here. Yeah, it was just really good. It was really good. And I like the going in and out of the different accents, different characters. Loved it. Absolutely loved it.

Well, that's kind of how he rehabbed the kind of racist conception of the character as, like, a chinese stereotype. He sort of made it, right?

Yeah.

The Mandarin, he said he sort of made it. Well, that's kind of the toy maker's thing. He's racist toward all kinds of cultures. That's just sort of what he does. Which, if you think about it, is pretty sinister. I actually think that it was a good way of acknowledging the racist history of the character while still making it work.

The toy maker is not human, so he can wear whatever he wants. I don't think of it as a cultural appropriation if he's appropriating everything that's human.

No, well, it's not just the appropriation part. I think the issue is also, like, the word celestial, I think is a derogatory term for chinese people.

Celestial, really?

Yeah. I don't think it's very commonly known, but at the time, it's hard not to imagine that that was in the head of the writer. It's just something that I think today would be sort of avoided. So, yeah, I thought for that reason, it was not without controversy choice to bring the character on screen in 2023. But I thought that Russell T. Davies handled it very well.

I think it was an interesting way because I didn't know until I googled more about the history of the character. And you do see some problematic writing from the 60s. But the way he was playing with the different accents, where the German comes in, where the American comes in, and where he sort of goes back to a default of this stayed british accent, is usually when they're talking about the rules, I thought was, again, a way that the character is playing with us, playing with the perceptions we have of that. And when the doctor does say, like, we could be in the stars, we could be a celestial. That's when the toy maker is like, yeah, but on the other hand, these humans, I am obsessed with them. They are great, the games they play with each other. And I love when he goes. He goes, and then there are the mind games. And he goes, right? The next line is he goes, the mind games, the dating, the ghosting, the deceit and control. I'm like, oh, my God. Yes, you are completely right. You make me dizzy. So he's obviously saying, I don't want to leave this place. So, yeah, it's a lot like on the nose stuff where this is, which, again, I find to be at least a lot of the modern doctor is calling us out. And why the doctor does get disappointed in us, it's like, oh, man, why are you behaving like this? You can do so much better. And he's even trying to get that through to the. He gives the villains that same chance. Like, the toy maker sort of says, like, or we could be playing in the stars. But also, why do you have to do this? Why don't you think of good and evil? And that was the interesting part about the toy maker as a villain, is that he's both whimsical and dark at the same time, because he goes, I am beyond all of that. I am endless, and all I care about is winning and losing. And he didn't seem to necessarily, even though he didn't like losing in the end, didn't, in that statement, express a preference. He wanted the game, which ties to me, thematically, back into the whole online thing, everybody being connected and everybody being right, is that every interaction we have on social media is about being right or being wrong. It's about winning and losing. You win the argument or you lose the argument. It's actually not about the morality. Are you doing the right thing or the wrong thing? Are you seeing it from a moral perspective? It's more important in the way that our current media and technology shapes things. It's more important to win. It's more important to be the one who comes out on top, rather than maybe learn something or evolve. And again, it was all woven in there, which is what doctor who is at its best. They give us the a story and the b story as we were talking about last week. And this a story was so dark and whimsical. I mean, the Spice Girls, I was living for that. I was just like, here we go. Here we go. And meanwhile, but also horrible death at the same time. So I wonder what their opinion is. I wonder what the Spice Girls think about their song.

They loved it. They posted about it on social media. They loved it.

I love that. That's great.

Two soldiers are killed basically and turned into rubber bouncing balls during their song. I mean, how amazing and gruesome is that? And funny at wrong, which is part.

Of the show and sort of back. That's what we like from it. But we're also like, oh, that was also creepy. Yeah.

This was the right kind of mixture of scary and creepy and playfully whimsical. Yeah. I think the toy maker was a really successful villain. And I think Neil Patrick Harris's performance was great.

I think Neil Patrick Harris did all the puppeteering himself for those. Like, and he did in real time, too, because I was watching. They had a very tight shooting schedule. And he's like, you have to give me the puppets. I got to do the Marriott, cut the string. You got to give me the next one. And he did that all in real time. So that was all him because they were going to have puppeteers do it and it was too complicated. He's like, I'll just do it. And, like, close hand magic. Like, he admits some of it was sped up because I can't do all of that that fast. But he did all the close up magic and stuff like that. So he was the guy for this part.

What the fuck is of links?

The links.

The blinks. Hello.

The vlinx of links.

This was there. It was the miss.

Yeah. Seemed familiar. Like, for some reason, it just was.

A weird, oh, hey, you're there.

Hello. The Vlinx. And that was what it was like. The Vlinx. Not flinks, but the Vlinx.

The vlinx struck me as like something that they recovered from, like, a crashed spaceship, and they just sort of hooked up.

It's setting up the fact that a unit has been up to stuff. They're also interacting because that's their job with aliens, unknown things and working into it. I sort of like the idea of, like, your father spent all this time trying to conceal unit, and now here you are. There we go. With the theme, again, out and proud in Avenger Tower. I cannot get over that, because every time I saw that, I was like, okay, we know what this is. But the idea that unit is now sort of this publicly recognized thing, because you know what? At some point, you can't stop denying that every Christmas there's an alien ship coming down in love every Christmas. So at some point, yeah, people are going to get used to that notion. But that was also one of those fun little additions into the show that maybe we'll get more of, maybe we won't. But it also set up a unit to be having a role in the next show. And I think there's. We're going to see some of the continuity is going to be between some of the things they've set up here, some of the characters they've introduced. I really think that's a very cool way of keeping us again. They've done it in the past where the Doctor regenerates, but still sees previous companions. And going back to what you're talking about earlier, I don't think this is any way going to be an issue of like, oh, but what is the 14th Doctor up to? I think they've buttoned that up. I'm totally there for other forms of media exploring maybe what the 14th Doctor does on earth or maybe his time in therapy. I don't know. That could be a show in and of itself. But I feel comfortable with that because I feel like the people running the show and the people that they're going to be bringing on as writers respect that. I don't think that Doctor or that foodie Gott was going to have any difficulty being the Doctor. He is going to be the Doctor of this era and nobody's going to question that. And the vibe in the very end was very clear about when. And then when he goes, it's like, all right, okay, kids. Yeah, off. And then Donna is like, I'm not going to this again. And she walks up. She doesn't want to. Just rolled off the Tardis again. That is beneath her. And her negotiating for more salary. Yes. $60,000.

120,005 weeks vacation done.

And her at the computer, like, doing that, say, fastest on keyboard in London. I love how they gave Donna noble real props for who and what she is because she was always underselling herself. And this time it was like, no, which, yeah, that's her character's own journey, was she was going to advocate for herself and be like, yeah, 120 and now has something to do and is going to have her own sort of adventures, which will be kind of funny because probably brings that home to the Doctor who might be like, hanging out in the backyard and be like, hey, what do you think? We encountered this thing and he's going to want to help be, no, no, we got this at unit. You're going to hang out. I could just see how they've set all this up for that sort of like, interesting life that they would lead. And clearly he's using the TarDis because he took Rose to Mars already.

Mel to New York.

Yeah. Do you think. What was the zingo? Is that just space Uber? That's what I thought. I'm like, they're just like, oh, yeah.

I don't know what that mean. Again, I don't know if it's like a throwaway gag or if it's something that is being seeded for the future. So there are a few things that Russell seeded for the future show. The one who waits, obviously the boss.

The boss.

Is that the same character or. No, I guess we don't know.

It might be the boss and the one who waits. I was thinking there might be the same.

There was a name drop that has to do with a spoiler from what I've seen of set photos of the shooting for the next season. Something along the lines of the Torchwood references in the second season. So there was a word that was said sort of offhandedly that I think is going to factor in. In. Just say it a big. They did like Mel said something about they're running triad in their computer thing. So there were set photos where there were trucks that say, like triad on the side. So Triad is a thing like, I don't know if it's like, Microsoft. A Microsoft. Yeah, if it's like a Microsoft proxy or something. So there are definitely seeds that are being planted for the future of the show. So yeah, Zingo or whatever that was. I don't know if that's one of them or if it's just a throwaway mavity thing.

This also seemed to me like a pilot for the unit show that there's going to be.

Yeah, there's got to be a unit.

And the 14th Doctor will probably be like a special guest in the pilot in the last episode. Maybe David Tennant will stick around unless they tenants, like, on board. Like, yeah, I'll just be a human Doctor and I'll be part of unit and we'll do our things. But the 60th anniversary episode was doing so much. But I was looking. I'm like, this is a pilot. This is a backdoor pilot.

Set was huge.

That set was massive. That set was massive. That's not a set you want to.

Collapse and erect and then collapse.

It's a standing set.

Like the Tardis.

Yeah.

And also the Avengers tower. It's like they made a big thing of establishing. Like, here is what unit is. And it's iconic. It has a tower and it is this. And here's how it works. Here's who works there. Here's the scientific advisor. Here's Mel. We brought Mel into the. You know, she's here. And I actually think it'll be really cool, if you think about it, if this unit spin off does happen, it seems the cast is all women. So you have Kate, lesbian Stewart, you have Mel, you have the scientific advisor, maybe Donna, who apparently works there now for 120 a year, which seems low to me for that job, but that's neither here nor there.

There's a little bit of pound to dollar conversion, but that still seems pretty.

Low for that job. Yes.

Living in London is pretty high.

But, yeah, I think we're definitely getting a unit spin off because there was a lot of ground laying for that in this. How do you think this compares to the 50th anniversary special as an anniversary special? Either this special or all three as a whole? Because I thought they work pretty.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

For me, I was watching one of the behind the scenes things, and Russell T. Davies said the anniversary specials are usually multidoctor stories and how he doesn't really like multi Doctor stories because he doesn't really like writing them. Like something that I think the 50th special did brilliantly was that it managed to give each of the Doctors their own kind of hero moments, make them all seem like they were individual characters with their own things going on, but yet versions of the same character. And in that Steven Moffat way of just, like. He just really made a very tightly, well constructed swiss watch of an anniversary special. And I thought the 60th was, like, less about, let's explore the potential of a multi Doctor special, even though at the end he kind of did that because he did a multi Doctor story in a way that we've never seen it.

I mean, we got two doctors for over 20 minutes. Yeah. That never happened.

No.

Yeah.

The 50th anniversary special, I don't know. I mean, I can't say better, but I did really enjoy the 50th anniversary special with the three Doctors. And it was sort of like being. Trying to put myself back then, like ten years ago. It was a redemption Doctor story because he'd been carrying that guilt that he destroyed all the Time Lords and genocided, basically, the Daleks, which he felt bad about, like he killed all these two races of people to save the universe. And then he gets an opportunity to not do that, to not be the destroyer of his people, but to find a way to bring them back and to sort of reconcile the choices he made as the wartime. I thought if you had movie choose, I like the 50th better than the 60th, but it's really tough just because the whole story arc of that ten years of storytelling leading to the 50th anniversary just felt really compelling and drawing and really got at that deep moment of the Doctor. But then again, this with John, with this 60th special, was the letting go of all the baggage and guilt of the time war, of the Pantorica, of the flock. It was sort of like Adric. Yeah. Letting all of that pain go that he's been through. Because just go back to what just seeing Chewie be the Doctor was know, aside from everything else that everyone said about appreciating what he is or what they are, when he came out, when he was there, it was one of the first regenerations, or the very few, where the Doctor knew who he was right when he came. I don't know who I am and what kind of guy shooty's doctor knows. I am the 15th doctor. I'm free. I'm going to have fun. I'm free of the guilt and the pain and the horrors of what I've been through in my lifetime. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I like the 50 tell storytelling. I like the 50th storytelling and what it did. But I also like this, too, for the. That is sort of an additional addendum to the 50th anniversary, like, relief of that pain and that suffering.

There also seemed to be a lot.

More.

Pomp and circumstance in our world on our side leading up to it. Like advertisements, posters. You knew this was coming, and it was like must see tv. I mean, I remember seeing it with a group of people in Manhattan, and then I saw it on the big screen in 3d. There was just a late night showing here in New York, and it was awesome. And it was like all this, like, you just couldn't get in the media and the magazines, and this seemed to be just kind of like a, we're doing it.

Well, that's something. I feel like the BBC made a choice that right after the 50th anniversary, they stopped doing that. Because I always remember because of the time in my life where I had moved and done things in my life, there was a time period of 2010 and eleven. It was a huge media blitz for Matt Smith's Doctor in the US, and it had this very. From what I remember reading about it, it was a very popular Brooklyn aesthetic because I think that's what they were doing. A lot of their advertisements was on every MTA bus, but it had this sort of alternative vibe to it, a little bit of a hipster vibe because they were filming some of it in the US, but trying to appeal to that nature. But at the very least, the BBC was putting this huge advertising mouth behind it in the US. So we all saw that. And particularly Matt Smith's Doctor was all over the place. Then after the anniversary, I didn't get any of that sense of Peter Capaldi's doctor. It's like they decided, good enough, we're done. And I think there are also changes into how BBC and BBC America operated here. So who knows what was happening at the higher levels of BBC. But they really stopped caring about the US market, or at least pushing into the US market. And I myself found myself slipping from Doctor who because I wouldn't remember, wait, when is the next season? Because there might be a year gap, a two year gap, a one and a half year gap, and there was no communication to a us audience, no media blitz, no advertisements on social media. It was just sort of like, no.

Toys, no toy, there was no merch. You could walk into a toys R us and see. I mean, it was bizarre seeing merch when I was a kid, when I was little, guy in middle would. This is another story for another time. But I would have to go, to be continued. A porn store in Minneapolis, because the owner of this porn shop loved Dr. Who. So he cordoned off a little area and I would go there with my dad and I would get like, I still have this Tardis tin with Peter Davison on it. All my books, all my magazines. Yes, he was taking me to a porn circle anyway, but now toys r us is having it. And then after what you're saying, john, after the 50th, it just seems kind of like tumbleweed.

Yeah, we're experiencing that. And maybe because Disney is coproducing and bringing to the US, we're going to see more. But even for Disney, I was surprised that there wasn't a bigger push, or maybe I just wasn't accessing the media where it was a big push. But it certainly is more than we've had in recent years. And I think that's going to be something we see as a little bit different. And I'm very curious to see going to the, you know, and the next season how much Disney pushes it in the US because we've been missing out on that.

Well, so that's the thing. I think the real push from Disney is going to start with, you know, they're calling this next season season one because also the Disney partnership didn't happen until the specials were already well underway. So I think as far as Disney was concerned, these three specials, I think, is really for, frankly, the Doctor who audience that was lost over the last few years to kind of bring them in again and get them excited and then where Disney really will do a huge marketing blitz and really take some ownership of know, this is our show and we want people to be watching it. I think that that's really going to start with the Christmas special, certainly, but definitely in the lead up to series one, I think it's going to be omnipresent. I think shooty is going to be everywhere. The other thing, too, is because like you guys were saying, the 50th anniversary happened arguably, when new who was at the height of its popularity. This anniversary special happened at, I don't think it's inaccurate to say the nadir when they were shooting Jody Whitaker's regeneration. They didn't know if that was going to be the end of the show for a while. They didn't know what was coming next. The viewership had really dropped off, and I think the future was very talked about. I think it's very smart and strategic to do the nostalgia thing with the most popular modern doctor, remind you why you loved the show, then clear the table, get rid of the baggage. You bring this youthful, joyous, amazing new lead in the form of Shudi Gatwa, the new companion and a new season one, and you start fresh. So I think that's what we're in for. Closing thoughts on the anniversary specials. Were they what you expected? Did you guys have a favorite?

My favorite, I think, was the star beast.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I can see that.

If I were to pick one out of the three starbeast just because it was so needed, it was such, sorry to the Chibnall era, but it was a slog getting here, really. I mean, I enjoyed Jodie Whitaker. She's fantastic. And there were some brilliant, brilliant moments, like the master reveal, didn't see it coming, had not been spoiled. And so when the master became on the screen, it was just like the other Doctor, the Renegade. What are we calling her?

The fugitive Doctor.

The fugitive Doctor.

Yeah.

Thank you. Fugitive Doctor. Didn't know, had not spoiled. But those moments, I needed more of those moments. And so getting to this point was like, okay, great. And I loved all three episodes. I still find that wild Blue Yonder is the creepiest Doctor who episode I've ever seen. Creepier than midnight still to this moment, when I think back, it affected me in a way that I still can't really vocalize. And then this one was joyous. And especially the very end of just. I felt closure. I felt closure. And being a fan for 40 plus years, I physically felt like this was closure, but yet a brand new start.

I think that was what was the greatest accomplishment of this, whether it be a 60th anniversary or just preparing for the new series, was that it gave us that sense of, that's what we said. The beginning was simultaneous closure and new beginning didn't feel dragged down by anything, just felt built up, which I think, I'm going to be honest, I need that in life right now. I think generally, as a people, we need that right now. Not to not have dark storylines, but to have something that just gives us excitement about what comes next rather than dread or worry about it. That was totally accomplished, and that's something that I don't think the previous anniversary specials had to do because they were more so just maybe specials or. This was, as you said, clearing the board and starting anew, but it also showcased three fundamentally different kinds of episodes. That's unique to a special, too. So it showed us that, wait a second, we have a lot to look forward to because all three had different story types, the way they were laid out and all of them worked for what they were. So that gives me a lot of hope going forward that we're going to get some really interesting but different episodes and who, at its best, has always been like one episode to the next, almost completely different. You're not just going through the same motions week after week, except you may very often get a goofy looking villain, which is what I think the meep was all about. The Meep was all about like, yep, we're going to literally show you the cuddliest, goofiest, animatronic little thing that's then going to be the creepiest villain. But because that's sort of the vibe of Doctor who, it's not meant to put you in a place where you have to be high minded 100% of the time. It's fun and silly as well. And to have done that differently in three episodes is a great preview, I think, of what we're going to get my favorite one. That's a tough one. I think my personal favorite is the giggle. But you know what I almost can't say because I really think that Starbeast was so good and really had so much emotion to it. And the second, the wild beyond, it was just a different style episode. But since that was more of a standalone horror, I guess that comes in second place. But I just view it as one sort of, what do they call it? Not a compendium. You get a book of different tales.

Anthology.

Anthology. There we go. This is an anthology. And as far as it goes, well done. Tryptic, tryptic, tryptic.

I just want to say triptych. James?

Yeah, I mean, despite what I might, I hope it came across, I mean, crow across the beginning when we started this, I did really enjoy the 60th specials. I loved a lot of parts of it and overall I thought it was great. I don't know if I have a favorite because I like John. I have view it as like a whole piece. Like it was a trilogy. Like one, one thing that was divided into three parts. But yeah, the star beast was excellent. Wild Blue Yonder was creepy and the giggle gave us a lot to chew on as we've discussed this whole episode. But really it cleared the way for new Doctor who and I'm excited for it. As I said, I'm really excited for what we're going to see. I don't have a problem ultimately with the choices they made because it's storytelling and I'm ready for more Doctor who adventures and seeing where he goes, the character goes and see where Russell T. Davies goes.

I'm with you, James. I think I'm the outlier here. I have a clear favorite. A wild blue yonder was my clear favorite just because I just thought it was so I think I said this last week, but I felt like it was Russell T. Davies showing off. He was like, just because I don't always give you what you want doesn't mean I can't do it and do it perfectly. I just thought on every level, wild blue Yonder was just fantastic. Yeah. I'm very pleased with what we got with the 60th specials. And again, I'll just echo what everyone else has said. I'm very much looking forward to the beginning of the 15th Doctor's proper tenure. I hope you'll all return to discuss the church on Ruby Road, the Christmas special, if you guys are for that coming in.

Absolutely.

Any errant thoughts? Anything you wanted to say that you didn't get a chance to say or anything I didn't ask about.

Not a fan of the new sonic screwdriver.

It's okay.

That's all.

I kind of like, here's why I like it, because it's been very clear for a long time that it is so much more than a screwdriver. I feel like it should look like.

It has a readout.

Yeah.

Like, if you want a tricorder, then Matt Smith, he always used to do this thing where he would, like, look at it, and I'm like, what the fuck are you looking at? Looking at this one actually looks like it's like, okay, I'm sure there's something there. Oh, did you watch the video that shudi Gatwa made, where he explained there's an inscription of a rwandan proverb.

Oh.

In Gallifrey.

That's translated into gallifreyan script. And it translates to. I thought this was beautiful. I just have to look it up. The sharpness of the tongue defeats the sharpness of the warrior.

Oh, that's good.

Which for the doctor.

Yeah.

So for Shudi Gatwa, personally, coming from Rwanda, but also it just shows that connection to the character and his culture, I thought was very lovely. So, guy, I don't know if that sways you at all. I know it's not separate from the design, but I'm fine with a screwdriver. I want to thank my guests, James, John and guy. You're all beautiful women, probably. If you liked what you heard, please follow Tardis rubbish on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. We'll be back after Christmas to discuss the 15th Doctor's first full adventure, the church on Ruby Road. And until then, laugh hard, run fast, best, and be kind.