S1E4 - The Doctor Dances Again: THE CHURCH ON RUBY ROAD

Hey.

Hello and welcome to Tardis Rubbish, where our brains are bigger on the inside, but still can't contain our rubbish opinions about Doctor who. Today, we're fresh off of watching the church on Ruby Road. The first full adventure of shooty got was Doctor, the debut of new companion Ruby Sunday, and the first Doctor who Christmas special since 2017. I'm Josh, and joining me today, he is a frequent contributor to the secret origins of mint condition and trash compactor, a mostly Star wars podcast. Welcome, John.

Hey, everyone.

And my longtime friend and even longertime Doctor who fan. Welcome, Guy. Hey, everybody. And an old friend from the mint condition days, frequent contributor to secret origins, making his Tardis rubbish debut. Welcome, Jack.

Hello, everyone. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Before we get to the church on Ruby Road discussion, we have a bit of a tradition here on Tardis rubbish. Whenever someone is on for the first time, we ask them who their favorite Doctor is, just to establish a baseline for where everyone's opinions are coming. Was or yours is the 10th Doctor David Tennant.

Yes, and still is as of now. But I am open to change and I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.

And, Guy, you're Peter Davidson the fifth, correct, correct. I'm a fourth basic bitch. Who is your Doctor, Jack?

Well, I would say, very similar to Guy. My first Doctor, the one who I was introduced to, was Peter Davidson. And so for many, many years, he was my favorite and still remains, I think, as what I think is the quintessential Doctor. But I think of new who. I am very fond of the Matt Smith, the 11th Doctor. I like the stories, his energy, and I think that'll tie very nicely into our discussion today.

Fantastic. Okay, so let's get into it. The church on Ruby Road. Overall thoughts, Guy?

Well, it was such a breath of fresh air coming out of the chibnall.

Era.

And piggybacking on the last three specials to see absolute joy. And it wasn't angsty. I'm all for pathos and internal drama and struggle, but as a Christmas special, yes. This is like, I think what I, as an american, think pantomime would be for UK viewers and UK fans. It was just fun. It was fun, it was light. Did I love it? I would say that I would give it seven and a half out of ten, but I'm really picky. I did think that it glossed over a lot of things, but those things where it focused in on really hit home. I really enjoyed it. And I loved the goblins. Although they were afterthought, they were just kind of there and there was no. How did they get there? Who are they? I mean, this is very like Doctor who meets fantasy. So as a time viewer and fan, I was like, so the goblins exist. I can get my head behind that and they aren't going to be shot down by f whatnot. So there's a lot of unanswered questions, but I just went around for the ride and it was fun. It was fun. I watched it twice already.

Yeah. I think there's something to be said. I think we are seeing the effects of the Doctor in wild blue yonder, letting myths become real. When he.

Wow. Yeah.

What did he do with the salt? He invoked a true. Yeah. On the edge of existence. Because Russell T. Davies has said that this season has more of a fantasy sort of vibe. And I'm wondering if that was sort of the in universe beginning of that. So you can have goblins and you have in the giggle. The by generation was a myth and maybe it allowed for that, but allowed the toy maker into our reality, all that stuff. So maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know. But, John, your overall know I'm right there with you.

Like, in terms of the joy and the fun of wasn't going in. I wasn't expecting, like, okay, this is going to be the best masterpiece of writing that I've ever seen, especially from Russell Davies, who himself has really been upping his writing game in the years since he left who. But it was literally everything I wanted it to be out of a Christmas special, especially because those can be hit or miss. You have voyager the damned, which is the high watermark. That is it. Also, didn't we say the last time the highest rated or something like one of the highest rated episodes of Doctor who ever? I mean.

Kelly Minnesota episode of Doctor who ever.

Yeah, it was really good. And then there were a few that didn't quite hit the mark. I remember trying to introduce somebody to the show, I think at two or three of them, and they didn't always land. And that was the thing. This one landed. This one really landed. And I had so much fun with it right off the bat. I knew from the previews what one of the early scenes was going to be, which is the Doctor dancing. It had this vibe that was very. I know what it was. It was Russell Davies hearkening back to queer as folk. But specifically, there were these sort of like dance montages in those episodes. And it was always meant to be depending on, I guess, the context. But it was meant to be this moment where you get to see somebody, you get to see them without the rest of the things that shackle them as a character or the writing. They're just able to move and be an experience. So we got that, which is really unique for the Doctor because usually it's just he's situational. Which crisis is it? Which companion? Which problems going on? This was the Doctor sort of doing his thing, but also ready the second that drink fell and is there to catch it because, oh, yeah, no, he's still on the clock. He still knows what's going on. Like, yeah, okay, something weird is going on. And from then on, I was sold. I was there, and it was fun. Goblins. Yeah, I totally believe it. They weren't really there or not, was the thing. So I guess radar couldn't pick them up because they were sort of on the borders of reality, which led to the best line about them, which was something to the effect of, are they time travelers? They're not time travelers. Time travelers are like, the best. Like, wow. And you're like, oh, okay, this doctor, he's feeling himself. This is going to be a ride. So I enjoyed the whole thing through and through, and it was what I want to have Christmas special. Now I'm waiting. Now I just want the season to start. I'm like, I want to see where they're going with this, what they're going to do. Seven, half, maybe for me, an eight out of ten in terms of the experience. But is it the best dramatic episode? No, but a good intro. And does anybody else think there were definitely vibes of the original reboot premiere? It sort of felt like the mannequins, the way he encountered rose the first time, that quick introduction, it just sort of felt like we were a little bit going back to 2005, stylistically.

Yeah, well, it's interesting because this is sort of a soft reboot of the show. It's for a new audience, for the Disney plus audience, the international, global audience. Yeah. It's very consciously from the perspective of the new companion, sort of introing us to the world of the Doctor, rather know, more recent companion introductions and even Doctor introductions. They just sort of assume that everything on the show is a known quantity, so they don't go through the like, okay, here's this. And then they establish this. And then they establish this. So, yeah, I think it was definitely designed very similarly to Rose, but, Jack, what were your overall thoughts on this episode?

Thank you, Josh. I enjoyed it a great deal. I felt the energy was very high. And to John's point, I definitely feel it captured what, historically, I've appreciated about the Christmas specials, insofar as there was just a lot of energy, there was a lot of go go, but it was very focused in what it was trying to accomplish. And so I truly appreciated that. I also appreciated, and I apologize, I hadn't seen the giggle at the point of the previous recording, but I have seen it. I appreciate, even with the bi regeneration, this new iteration of the Doctor didn't have that kind of lost or conflicted aspect that new generations. The first outing of the Doctor typically has. We can honestly say that Shuttui Gatwai just kind of just embodied, this is who I am, and I'm just going to move forward without having to sit back. And on one level, I think that was really prescient of Russell T. Davies, to actually split them and then essentially leave the 14th Doctor with all of the angst and then allows this Doctor to move forward very freely and so that we can just go for the ride. And I think, again, as we said, introducing it to the Disney plus audience and to a broader global audience, it doesn't necessarily hold us down with all of that baggage. But I also agree, it's very similar to. In tone, it seemed to me to be a mashup of kind of the Shakespeare code and Rose. And the aspect of Rose is, obviously, you have the new companion, who has a full backstory in their life that you are introduced to within the course of the episode. And so you become vested in them, not just from the perspective of following the Doctor, but this is a fully realized human being, fully realized parents and everyone around them, including a mystery, which is something else we'll get to in a minute that really kind of vests you directly into the new companion. And obviously, again, introduction of goblins. That mythical aspect of it all did remind me of the Shakespeare code, because the doctor occasionally referred to their technology as rope. He speaks the language of ropes, and within the Shakespeare code, it was essentially the incantations, was their technology. And here it was coincidence. I just love that kind of playing around with things that we see as very mundane in our own daily lives. But in the Doctor who realm, in the who universe, the who verse, as it were, they really kind of say, well, how would this appear to either a different life form that perceives of life and interactions in a different way? And so I thought that, again, was very fascinating, and I look forward to seeing more of that.

No, I love that also. It's such a big idea, and that's something that Doctor who does really well. They just casually slip in these huge ideas that are mind blowing and far reaching and it's all in service of getting you from a to b. It's like, no, the show is not about that, necessarily. It's just the most interesting way to get from a to b. I love this. I don't know. I went in, like. Not that I didn't have expectations. I had expectations, but they were tempered. Especially because it's a Christmas special. And like you said, john, the Christmas specials, I think, can be hit or miss. And they're also written a little differently for a Christmas Day audience where you have to assume that more than just fans are watching and at least half the audience is a little drunk. So they're usually a bit sillier and broader. The only real kind of aspect of that that I could detect was the goblin musical number which I'm fine with. I don't know how I feel about it. Like, on its own, I really enjoy it. But in the context of the show, I was kind of like. It was sort of a bum note, though. I love how they released the single and then when it played out in the episode, they go even further and the Doctor and Ruby join in. I was like, what is this? This is so cool. And they were really good. I have to wonder. So Ruby's in a band, right? So was that kind of seeding the fact that she had some musical ability? Because it seemed like, very, like, oh, it's a good thing that the two of them can just freestyle like this on their feet because I might be making something out of nothing here. But I have to wonder if that's not something that might play into. There's a mild spoiler here. So anyone who wants to be completely unspoiled, cover your ears for the next 12 seconds. But there is a musical episode in this season. I wonder if there's going to be some kind of a callback to some explanation to how they're just able to burst into song. I don't know. Probably not, though we did get a mavity reference, so not everything.

I missed that one.

That's enduring. I took note of that immediately. I was like, mavity again? Oh, they really did mess up the. Like, they're just rolling with this one.

The one thing I thought was funny, though, with the band is. And it's so very subtle, know, they refer back to the lead singer and they say, janice. And I was like, oh, Janice Goblin. I was like, that is so. I was like, okay. I like that. A so because it was so subtle, but very well thought.

Know, it's funny, I think Russell T. Davies on Instagram said recently that he didn't think of Janice Goblin, and that was something that someone brought to his attention. Like, he named it Janice.

Oh, wow.

But it took someone else to be like Janice Goblin, and he was. Oh, yeah.

Oh, that is.

So. So I loved, like, I wasn't expecting to love it as much as I did. I loved Shooty's doctor. He's much more, I think, overtly emotional, yet still very doctorish. Like, he's still up to something. He's still aloof. He's still operating on a different level. Can I ask you guys, who did you watch it with? Or did you watch it alone? Because I had a situation. Oh, I see. I touched here because I had a situation. I wanted my partner to watch it with me. And her mother is here, who I knew wouldn't like it. So I was like, should I just wait until everyone goes to sleep and watch it myself? Or should I be like, hey, everyone, let's all watch this together. Which I eventually decided to do that because that's what the special is designed to do. It's supposed to be Christmas debuting for the whole family. So I was like, don't overthink it. My partner fell asleep, and her mom decided to go read a book instead. So I ended up watching it by myself, so it was fine. But anyway, so who'd you guys watch it with?

I also watch it with my partner and his mother, who has never. I don't think she's ever heard of doctor who or she knew of doctor who before stepping foot into our apartment. And I said she was really excited to watch the latest mission Impossible movie. And I said, but first, I want you to watch this. And it went.

Shoot.

It went over her head. So for a newbie in her 60s who really was hoping to just see Tom Cruise blow up some things and punch some people, this was not for her. My partner loved it. He gave it an eight out of ten. When we get to it, I have a theory from him, which I think is not so far fetched, considering it is doctor who. But, yeah, I watched it with those two, and it was interesting. So that's why I had to watch it immediately after she left. I had to watch it again.

Yeah, I was considering trying to rope my entire family into it, but I was like, no, that's too much of a pull. And the kids are way too young, but if they'd all been a couple of years older, I might have been like, this is Christmas. This is a Christmas special. I would have used some machinations and made it happen because I think it would have been, I would have think it would have been fun, but. So when I got home from Christmas, I was like, all right, I got to watch this guy. I have a job to do here. And it was a really nice way to wind down the night, actually. And it's something that you could get somebody, I think, a kid five and older could appreciate. I think, 16, older. No. Yeah. No. If they've never been part of doctor who or had any connection to it. But I really do want to know, as a result, both how many people watched it on Christmas day, how many people are watching it the days after, and what the demographics are, because I can see this opening up to a new audience. But it definitely felt like something that you could, you could at least watch with somebody without having to be like, all right, let me explain literally everything. It was just sort of enough of its own self contained. It was enough of a, just sort of, it was just a romp on its own without needing a lot of other explanation. Although if you're going to watch with me, you're going to get it anyway, so you're screwed.

Well, for me, since typically my family and I live out of the country, we have not had access to Disney plus. And so obviously, when we came back about two weeks ago, we've just been binge watching so many things. And for me, I was very excited to obviously, watch the specials. And so I invited the entire family to watch the specials. As I watched them, I kind of started watching Blue yonder with my youngest son. And again, I think that is way too almost a meta commentary on Doctor who for a twelve year old to really grasp. And so then even things like the Christmas special, obviously, he was not so engaged that he would have seen giggle, and so then the bi regeneration would have been completely lost as to, well, we just saw it and it was this other person and now it's this new person. So again, as you said, josh, I waited till everyone goes to sleep and then I can just sit and watch comfortably and have my own thoughts and opinions. But it is definitely something, I think, of all of the pop culture that I enjoy. Doctor who, I think is the one that is furthest away or furthest removed from my family. I mean, everyone goes along for the ride, for the MCU, everyone goes along for the ride for, obviously, Star wars bits and pieces of Star Trek, particularly the Kelvin verse and Doctor who just seems almost solitary. My own little piece of enjoyment that no one, I think can really understand. They recognize. I like it. I mean, obviously I have a TarDis throw rug, throw cover, and so everyone knows I've got a little mini TardIS that I have on my desk at home. But it's just kind of. That's just kind know, Jeff, or.

Because.

I get what you're saying, but I'm wondering, why do you think that is? Is it the combination of the fact that the show is a little more out there in terms of it's not pretending to be beholden to some kind of reality, combined with the fact that it's a particularly british sensibility. So I think maybe the two make it a little less accessible. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Do you guys have any thoughts on.

Why that know, I think that's a really good question. And I thought about this, and so for know I, with my partner, we watch slow horses and obviously that's BBC produced and we both enjoy that like a great. It's. It's very exciting. Obviously it's very british, but it's very entertaining and a very conventional guy. To your point, mission impossible. There's a task, there's an operation that they are supposed to perform. We've even watched killing Eve, which again, kind of has a very strong kind of british influence on it. Irrespective of the fact that Sandra O is the main character. It primarily takes place with a very european feel. My thought on it, and on one level, just to kind of list all of the pop culture media that I've listed before, I think Doctor who has a lot of established worldbuilding. That's very difficult to jump into. But also the ground rules are much looser than many of the other established media. I think if you start from the MCU, it is just very grounded in what the rules are. There are superheroes and by extension, supervillains. Their motivations may not necessarily be very strong, but the fact that they exist is they will conflict. And then also going into Star wars, very similar. You have Jedi and you have sith. Along the same lines, the conflict is the nature of the storytelling that you have. Star Trek, I think, also becomes a bit more difficult because there is no primary antagonist that they confront. Obviously, you have different alien species, all of them sensibly reflections of us as humans, but there is no central goal that they're trying to achieve. They're just out there doing things. And when it comes to Doctor who, once you factor in the fact that this is an individual who is millions, might even assume, depending on how you age him, billions of years old, who has various different iterations, sole purposes to do good, who can also travel through time. That becomes a very squirrely logic that is difficult to kind of explain to someone in a way that is easy for them to understand if they don't already have that backstory built in. I don't know what everyone else thinks about that.

I think that's been a problem in the past, getting in, getting people into Doctor who has been and has not only the mythos, but it has a cultural vibe that seems unapproachable to some people. Even I felt that before the 2005 reboot, it felt very removed and specific because it ended in 89, and I'd seen the tv special, which was accessible to me because it was very americanized, very 90s, but it didn't go anywhere. And it always felt like, oh, that was that thing from that time that has a very specific feel to it, a very specific vibe to it, a very britishness to it. And so I could recognize the symbols of Doctor who and be like, oh, that's what that was. But it never drew me in personally because it wasn't that accessible over here in the states by comparison to what it is now, at least not in the 90s. So it was there 2005, Josh, I forget how we got into it. I think we were watching it before. It was easily accessible here. You were giving me the dvds of, like, this is the new doctor who. So it's like, okay, let me try this out. And boom, I was in. Then it started airing here about a year late, at least a couple of months late. And it felt a lot more accessible to me the way that this one felt accessible. And I think that was what he did in this episode, was he didn't say, okay, let's focus heavily on the mythos. Let's just go. Let's just go show the characters doing their thing. Everyone's going to catch up because we're not going to go too deep. We're just going to go have some fun with it. And that sort of worked for me. So I think this should be accessible to people who want to get into just I don't know what the audience is going to be for this show. I'm really curious to see what they're doing with Disney. One thing I did remark about while watching it was I said, wow, I can tell the Disney production value to this. I can tell a lot of things. But warning in the back of my head, this was green lit in the chapek era of Disney when Bob Chapek was CEO. And Bob Iger's come in and mean, I will not say the bad guy's name. We all know Warner Brothers discovery, but he's following in his footsteps. Bob Iger is and is sort of cutting things. So I wonder how much slack is going to give the show in terms of, well, how long does it have to establish an audience? I think if anything was going to establish an audience, it's this type of vibe to it. With the new doctor, I think shudiyatwa in particular nails an accessibility and a fun and an interest that is going to expand that out because I didn't feel like I had to know who this person was. He's a doctor and, oh, he's out there. He can do stuff. And I think the fans are going to be the ones who are going to be the long term friends will be like, wait, that's what a sauna scooter driver looks like now, or what's going on with this? What's going on with that? A lot of questions, s. But I really hope that it's just accessible enough to get some new people into it. I thought that they made a lot of inroads into the US audience with the 11th Doctor, Matt Smith. And I don't know whether that was because of marketing or not, but it felt like that was very. That did break its way into culture. And all of a sudden, people were referring to him and the doctor, and I was like, wait, you don't watch the show. What are you talking about?

Yeah, well, that was very intentional. It was marketing. And I think the problem is, the same problem that happened to the classic show originally, is that it goes on long enough, it starts to become more self referential and about its own lore, and it becomes inaccessible. Think about that first meth Smith year. That was 2010. That's almost a decade and a half ago. Seven, eight, nine seasons of a show later, it becomes kind of inaccessible again. So I think it's really savvy to reboot the show. Start out with a rose like introduction where you don't have to know anything. Again, it's from a new companion's point of view, and you're introduced to all of the elements. This is being referred to as being marketed as season one, even though, which I found very strange, given everything else that they're doing. Disney plus was advertising this special as special four.

Yeah, I saw.

That just seems like a baffling decision. If every other decision made seems to flow from this idea that they want it to be new viewer friendly and feel like this is a good jumping on point. So it's just like, why would you call it special four? So you're saying, okay, I have to watch these other three specials first that are hugely reliant on knowledge of what has come before. I found that to be very od. But who am I? I don't work in the Disney marketing department. Nobody asked me.

Well, they should.

Yeah, well, the other thing, too, that just occurred to me while you guys were talking. Doctor who is kind of a workout for your imagination. The things that the show asks you to just take for granted and go with. Unless rope. You have right.

Exactly.

The language of rope, which sounds like a very gentle bdsm movie. But if you think about it, you just have to go with certain things and be on board with the explanation or the implications that the introduction of this new idea has for you to just enjoy the story as a regular 45 minutes of storytelling. And I think for some people, it's too out there. It's too much. It's like, what do you mean, the language of rope? I was glad my partner was asleep for that, because I knew that I would have had to pause the show and have a very long 25 minutes discussion about what that means and why. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Can we just keep watching the show? Discussion. So, yeah, I don't know. Do you want to talk a little bit more about this new doctor and what he's like and how we felt about him?

When he's on screen? I can't look away.

He's magnetic.

Yes, I'm gay, but I'll fight any heterosexual man who disagrees that this man is super mean.

Very good looking man.

Yes.

Okay.

So I won't have to fight you, Josh.

Fantastic.

I was looking forward to it, though.

You got the word there. It's magnetic. There are magnetic.

Yeah.

I was listening to Patrick Stewart's autobiography, and he was talking about an early career thing. I like going up against somebody who was very handsome and very cute, and he said, well, I'm sort of glad I wasn't, because when you're cute, the expectations on you are all front loaded and you have nowhere to go but down when you're not. And he's sort of referring to himself. And I thought, yeah, you can be hot. You can be attractive or whatever, and that'll get you in the door. That might get some fans to be like, oh, yeah, let me go. This will write their fan fiction, they'll go there. To actually have the magnetic quality is something else. And that's what we're seeing on screen with this is where it's like, oh, yeah, has the whimsy of the doctor, has the gravity, too. Am I supposed to say mavity? Is that the appropriate in universe term now? Because you have to say mavity. They're sticking with it. God, if I start doing that, I'm going to end up doing it in the real world, and that's just going to happen. They're messing with us there. But he does have that quality about him. And that's so much fun to see, is that it's the doctor. There's a depth, there's a weight to it, but there's also a fun and a brightness. And this is something that I think every doctor has had, to some degree or another, brought that element, but to have it there, I hope again, that that's appreciated. And I don't know, I can probably just go with this for a couple of seasons and be absolutely delighted.

I think both know, Guy and Jonah said, are both spot on with respect to not only the actor, but the characterization, I think, fully engaging, magnetic excellence, way to describe him. And my concern as an african american man is, shortly after introducing the first female doctor, they're now introducing the first doctor of color. And there are obviously a lot of risks associated with that, particularly considering the chibnall aerial is not necessarily as well regarded as some of the others. And on one level, I don't know if Paris Deadbee or Russell T. Davies, and I know that shoot B was not available, and this is the reason why they went with the regeneration of the former 10th to become the 14th. Obviously, bringing that fan favorite David Tennant made sense from a practical standpoint. But I think also from a sociocultural perspective, you almost kind of need to create some distance between the first female doctor from an era that is not as necessarily well regarded. Bringing back a fan favorite so everyone can kind of, at least all of the returning fans can come back on board before you would go to the first doctor of color, who has their own kind of unique, exuberant personality in a way that balances a lot of the expectations. And so I think from a production value or production perspective of how or why they did it, it makes sense, but I also think it works. And that, I think, probably would have been something very difficult to try to achieve if shortly after Jodie Whitaker, they would have gone to shoot me as the doctor. I think on some level, you have a lot of entrenched fandom. Who would have seen, well, this is now, and I'm sure they still exist. Doctor who has gone woke. There's nothing here for me. But I think it was done in a very smart and intelligent way.

That's so well put, Jack. That's because I think you're right. It was a way that the producers and I think Dave's himself was like, how do we deal with the cultural moment we're in? And he's reading it because it's different than the moment we were in 2005, different than the moment when he left the show. And he's had to navigate them from the standpoint of a white, gay, cis male. And he's been very good at that in the things that he's done with that from queers folk onwards. And it's funny, I'm thinking about what you're saying and Josh, you sent the video around. The BBC was showing sort of a retrospective on Russell Davis'career.

I didn't send that around. I have no idea how you watched it.

Sent a link to the BBC. It was totally, totally accessible to us Americans.

Yeah, we all flew to the UK and we watched iPlayer.

That's exactly how we did it. Just clip. But I thought it showed, like, the advancement of a writer, but also somebody who has been writing in a way that is trying to nail what the cultural vibe is going on. And we live in a really difficult one right now. This is so radically different than the world we thought we would be in and the world that we sort of started the reboot of Doctor who in 2005. And so it was both shocking and a lot to see Captain Jack as an outgay character. And there was the typical outcry, but it was the typical outcry. It was the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to say, oh, my God, I can't believe they're doing this on Doctor who, because they've been doing that since 64. There were always objections. It was mostly about it being too scary for kids or too violent, or there were liberal progressive ideas in there, or I think the big controversy was too pro union or unionist or something. And who knows? Maybe there was a standpoint they took of the monarchy that I don't know about at some point, but the era we're in now feels like people are waiting on bated breath to freak out about something. And when I do check in my masochistic way, the comment boards on the show, I see a lot of love for these specials. I haven't really done a deep dive into this one yet, but I see a lot of love for it. And then a lot of those angry comments, but they're all coming from the same place, which is like, oh, they're just waiting. They're just waiting to use the word woke. They're waiting to be angry at something. And I sort of wonder, what are those types of fans or those types of viewers doing with their lives? Is there anything left for them to love? They feel like there isn't, but they're like, do you actually love anything? Because you didn't have a problem 15 or 20 years ago, but we've been programmed with that. So on the production side, you have to almost cut some losses and say, yeah, literally, no matter what we do, we're going to lose some people and probably gain some others. And I think the vibe I'm getting from this is that they're really trying to just say, well, we're going to go in the woke direction, if you can even call something that, but we're just going to go in the actual direction of where the world is going and make a good show. I think that was the difficulty that Jimmy Miller era was, that we're going to say, okay, first female doctor, this is great. And then it just really sucks that the production quality was lagging as the BBC began to pull its enthusiasm and the writing wasn't good. So you had a double whammy, which leads you to believe, oh, they went woke, they went broke. It's like, no, they just were a show that was on for a while and it got weak. And that's just really bad timing to try to bring in the first female doctor. And Jack, you nailed it with that. This could have been the same problem is, know how you introduced audiences to a new doctor in the first place, a new Doctor of color, a new doctor who's going to represent, have to take on the mantle of that because that's how we always do it in our culture is, well, they're the avatar for that entire group. It's like, well, they're actually an actor playing a role and that's really, have fun of that as a viewer, but you can't deny the weight that is on their shoulders. So I think from the actor standpoint, brilliant. From the producer's standpoint, the writing standpoint, all done. Because to me, again, it was a transparent shift over to another doctor of like, oh, yeah, this just feels like a right way to do the journey. This is just what I wanted. And again, we go back to that word fun, not in a diminishing way, in the reason for the show. It was fun, and we can probably go on to it. It was also emotional because it went there too. The entire thing about fostering before even the timeline shift where it got dark, it really was that heartfelt notion of people being.

The use of the term foundling as well, I think, was very well, yes.

What did you think? I had heard that only most recently on the Mandalorian. I hadn't heard that. I didn't realize that that was commonly used, sort of a british phrase for that, and that it's a very antiquated term.

Yeah, well, it's also very interesting because it's directly engaging with some of the largest changes or additions to the lore from the Chibnall era. This idea that the Doctor was a foundling and now all of a know Russell T. Davies is very savvy, engaging with the thematic stuff that was recently introduced, know constructing a whole companion whose identity and backstory is very similar. He ties that into the new backstory of the doctor. That the doctor also doesn't know who their parents were or where they came from, I thought was really doing a lot to rehab the Chibnall era in my mind. I'm not a huge fan of the Chibnall era. I think that it had its heart in the right place. I stayed quiet in terms of not. I didn't feel like I wanted to contribute any more criticism in certain online spaces because I knew that I would be speaking on the same side of people whose reason for criticizing the show I found morally repugnant and abhorrent. So I was just like, you know what? I don't need to throw any fuel on that fire. I'll just watch the show and not enjoy it. As it turned out, it is possible to watch something not like it and not talk about it on the Internet. I don't know if the rest of the world knows this. Yeah, but I discovered it. It's possible. Yeah.

I've become discouraged. There are some YouTube sites that I frequented. I'll disagree. I'll agree. But it's interesting to watch their take on certain aspects of fandom. And then I've seen the amount of vitriol against not only Chibnall era, but now these three specials. Doctor who is dead. I have not seen anything. I've not even gone because it's just useless to go to see what these people are spouting now. And I think though, that contrary and being contrarian and being argumentative and being combative is more exciting, and more people are prone to look at an accident happening or an argument or a fight happening than they are two people hugging. That's why I'm just wondering, yeah, I think he who screams the loudest gets noticed more. And I think there's a certain fandom that screams, this is wrong. This is. Anyway, it's frustrating to me.

It is frustrating. And it's funny that Josh says, oh, there's a thing called watching something and not just going, but that's not the world. And then I thought, well, that's the world we're on. We're literally in it right now with each other right now. But when the show was rebooted, that was 2005. That was the year after Facebook was founded. That was the year before YouTube was bought by Google. The world changed fundamentally right about that point in terms of the way social media shaped the way we want to express ourselves, but also the way it makes us angry. And that's why I think, actually, for any flaws that you can see in it, Russell Davies is great at writing because 2005, who was all about reality tv in an episode or two, he just drove the point home with the introduction of Captain Jack's episode. I remember that one. I was like, oh, my God, this is such uniquely british satire against the onslaught of reality tv, which was taking over the airwaves both here and in the UK. And that was a know on the spot type. Well, now you have the giggle, which is what we're talking about right now, which is you said a guy, everybody wants to be right. They want to be yelling louder than each other. They're not really interested in sitting down to watch a show on Christmas, enjoy it, and be like, hey, that was pretty good. Yeah, that was pretty good. And maybe like we would, in the mint condition days, we would. Oh, God, Jack, there was one conversation I'm trying to remember, but I remember you went on the most brilliant lecture for about 2025 minutes, deconstructing some comic book thing. But it was so much fun. There was no hostility. This was, we are going to go so deep into it, we're going to deconstruct it. This might have sucked, this might have been great, but there was a joy to that entire experience, and the uninitiated of us learned that was the brilliance of those years. We weren't there to yell at each other about it, like, well, now that you like Doctor who, I can't be your friend anymore. No, we were just like, right, enlighten me.

I'm looking forward to this new doctor and the way forward, I think, for many long time fans, the return of Russell T. Davies, I think, was, ironically, almost a breath of fresh air because we know his ability to, as a showrunner, manage all of the disparate aspects of the scripts and the overall storyline in a way that will yield just a beneficial result. And so I think the show is in a very good place. I feel the Christmas special really serves as a very good jumping on point for a lot of new fans. And also, I think, for existing fans, our ability to kind of come back and say, okay, this is even though, and I think it's very bold and I think we've discussed maintaining some of the things that Shibnell, some of the controversial things that Chibnall introduced. But I respect a writer who is willing to work within that storyline as opposed to completely denying it, because that, I think, is the depth of good storytelling and the depth of good world building. And I look forward to see how Russell T. Davies kind of incorporates that in a way that makes this doctor not only uniquely their own, but also allows the entirety of the history come forth in a way that is not overbearing and yet still know you're right.

It was kind of a breath of fresh air to have Russell T. Davies come back, which is ironic because he should be the old guard, but like you pointed out last week, John, I think it was you. One of the most amazing things about Russell T. Davies is that he has been evolving in terms of not just his style of writing, but also he's still adapting, he's still learning, he's still interested in trying new. You know, frankly, he had just come off of doing it's a sin, which was huge in the UK, and he could have chosen whatever project he wanted to do. And he went back to Doctor who, which says to me that he definitely has some stuff he wants to say and wants this megaphone to be able to say it again. My issue with the Chibnall era, and I hate it, really pains me to slag off the Chibnall era because it's really hard to write and it's really hard to make stuff. And I think that just making something is an accomplishment worthy of celebration. But my main issue with the Chibnall era was the aboutness was missing. I didn't know what the show was about. I didn't know what it was trying to say. It made a lot of superficial decisions, but there was no core of aboutness there. It just wasn't working on any other level beyond playing with the lore, but it's not inherently interesting to play with lore unless you're using it to make a point or to tell a story. And that's what, for me was lacking in the Chibnall era, unless it just was there and it went over my head, which is entirely possible, as you know, something that really struck me watching the church on Ruby Road last night was how well developed Ruby's family. You know, that's really a hallmark of Russell T. Davies tenure on the show. He always really gives the companions family, really makes them feel like real people, and really sketches out these incredibly realistic and evocative situations. And my favorite scene in the episode was it was right after Ruby disappears from the timeline and the doctor had that conversation with her mother in the kitchen where she's holding the baby and she's explaining why this new alternate version of herself would never want to have a child. And it just felt so like that was a real character saying something really real and sad and profound. So I was really into that. And then it cuts back to shooty and he does this thing where he's crying. So I was, like, seeing this new side of this new doctor where the other doctors generally hide the emotions that they're feeling. And he just is sort of so feeling he can't even hide it. He's feeling it and he's letting it out. And I was like, wow, this scene is really good. But the point of what I'm saying is that seemingly effortlessly, Russell T. Davies creates this world of characters for this new companion. Know, I was invested. I'm involved. I like the grandmother. She's awesome. She needs to get damn awesome. That's like something that I just feel like was missing from the Chibnall era and even the Moffat era. I mean, it was there, but not to the same degree. He also is able to sketch out interesting characters, but it's usually because he would give them some sort of a zany hook. But compared to, like, yaz's family, for example, as a writer, as a creative person, I'm trying to figure out why this was so much more impactful and got me so much more invested versus seeing Yaz's family a few seasons ago. And I'm just like, I don't care. That's a little harsh. Like, in that episode, that was a good episode, but, yeah, what is the difference? Why is one so impactful, so effective and the other one's not? I can't quite figure it.

Good. That's a really question.

They were very distinct characters. The mother and the grandmother and Ruby and the three together. I think also because there's three of them and Yaz's family, there's so many. I mean, there was the sister, mom and dad was there, the. I mean, maybe that's why. But you got a sense immediately of who these people are and just the comments of why they lived in the attic apartment versus moving one floor down a one line can say so much into their economic situation and who they are. And then just all those pictures on the refrigerator. It's just like visual clues that help tell the story, too. It was a very inviting, cozy, bright apartment with the lights and the Christmas tree, and then contrast it to the moment where reality switched and it was done in, like a blue, cold filter and everything was just off. But, yeah, I think Russell has, let's just admit the guy has got it. He's not an up and coming writer or artist. He's got it, and he's amazing at what he does. And I, as a fan and as a viewer, feel blessed to have somebody of his caliber and running the ship and his attention to flippant detail and his care of incidental characters. The police officer, the police officer. Another great sense that this guy, I like this guy. I want to see this police officer again. I want to see him get married in a minute. I got a sense of who this guy was. And that's all down to the writing and also the care. The care for what other people might see as not important as taking the unimportant and making it. I just. I'm a fanboy, right? Russell B. Davies is just fantastic, and I'm so glad he's back.

You say it so well, because that was one of the first things I sort of, like, jotted down. And I was like, all right, let's make some notes. For the first time I watched this episode is the engagement scene the police officer. I was like, yeah, that was really cool. And then the doctor is a long but really quick explanation for how we figured it out and then ran through the stats. But that was a moment where I was instantly like, oh, this is going to be good. This is going to be intense. But I didn't realize it until you just sort of both framed it that way, was that I care about the people on screen. And I'm thinking back to the previous shows, and I think that when you go back to some of the earlier shows, like queers, folk, there's a lot to be, like, there's cringeworthy, like, oh, from quality or some writing things because we have 20 years later, everybody hones their craft. But it was so compelling because from the second that show started, you were vested in those characters. And that's something that I think people say, yeah, he doesn't get the science. Tiny, whiny stuff that was, know, wheelhouse really nailed that stuff, especially during the Matt Smith era as Doctor was really cool stuff as to how things and why they were happening and stories and plots within plots within plots. I don't come into the Davies era again really expecting that level of complexity or that type of storytelling. But just as we had sort of hoped as the specials were getting going, was it going to have the second side of Doctor who, which was the heart, or maybe doctor who has two hearts. That's the point. You have the two stories. You have the two hearts. And the answer is absolutely. You care about everybody. And I think that's why we haven't gone heavy into the new companion Ruby. I'm already totally digging it. I get a little bit of more traditional companion vibes this time around. It definitely has know. Yeah, we're going back to that sort of not. It's not Donna, but she was a standout of not being that impressed by the Doctor and just sort of being like, okay, well, let's fix it then. This is more the adventure of, like, wait, goblins. What? And then the moment figuring out, wait, when was Harry Houdini? Wasn't it the 1920s? And watching the wheels come together and putting the pieces together of like, did I just actually encounter a time traveler? What? That was so brilliant. Because she runs down and you have that scene, you're like, yeah, okay. She wants to go figure out what happened. Wants to go. And the jacket putting on scene means she's not just going to find out what happened. She wants to go along for the ride now. And he was waiting. The door creaks open. He was waiting. He was sort of like, do I do this again? Yeah, I'm going to do this again. And she didn't say it. She didn't say the line. She didn't say the line on the inside, but they telegraphed it. She goes inside, runs back outside, and then runs back inside again, which I thought was such a brilliant way of doing the thing that we know has to be done. You have to say it or you have to imply it. We know it's bigger on the inside. It's going to shock anybody. And they did it so well in that scene. And that left us with the jaw dropping moment of the fourth wall. Breaking and the neighbor just going, haven't you ever seen a Tardis before? And that's what I was just like, uhoh. Uhoh, something's happening. There's a lot going on. And of course I think that plays into who the mother is walking away and the Doctor didn't intervene with that or do anything. I think there are the plots within plots, even though I'm Moffat level, they're going to be interesting and fun and I think we got to taste that at the end because who's the neighbor? Who is Mrs. Flood?

Yeah, who is Mrs. Flood? So let's talk about these two mysteries.

Flood or Miss Flood?

Mrs. Flood, the neighbor played by Anita Dobson. Do we have any theories on who she is? I have a theory that's kind of.

I want to hear it.

I want to hear this theory because then I have to tell you what my husband's theory.

So this isn't from any spoilers or anything, but it is informed from, I'm on the discord for Tardis or ruditorum, and there's been a lot of chatter on there from Elizabeth Sandofer about this. She thinks it's Susan. She also thought the one who waits was Susan, will be Susan because she's been waiting for her grandfather to return ever since she left the Tardis in the Daleks master plan. And there's something with all the talk of abandoned children and there's a big emphasis on found family and all that stuff in this episode. So thematically, it just all kind of lines up. And also the fourth wall breaking. The only other character that has ever had the power to break the fourth wall has been the Doctor himself was the Doctor.

Yeah.

So without being the Doctor, the closest you could get to someone that may plausibly have that ability would be Susan, his granddaughter. So I don't know. I don't like. And there was something. Russell T. Davies showed up to the premiere of the first special with Carolyn Ford on his arm, which I thought was weird. So I don't know. I don't know anything.

I don't know crumbs.

But I feel like there's a non zero chance that Mrs. Flood is Susan. It's a weird name, though. Mrs. Flood to me just evokes like River Song and Amy Pond. I feel like there's something hidden in that name that I can't figure out.

Oh, this kind of piggybacks on the theory that Ruby is Rose and the alternative 10th Doctor in the alternate universe is that Ruby is their daughter. You have Ruby, Red Rose, red, the parents couldn't be mean. I was thinking, well, it's not so far. It's Doctor who and somehow it's their daughter. Your parents could not be found. I mean, they couldn't be found because they're in another universe. But anyway, that's. That.

That's a good theory. That makes a lot of sense. My only thing against it is that I don't know how deeply into the lore Russell is going to go. I mean, I feel like that's like a real deep cut. No, but that said, it makes complete. I mean, like, it's a good.

Huh.

I can't help but feel like the mysterious mother figure, robed figure who drops off her baby. Can't help but feel like it's Ruby herself.

From Ruby herself.

Yeah. Is that, like, so obvious?

No, that's not far off, actually, because.

John, you mentioned the Doctor pointedly decides not to go see who it is and he knows Ruby is dying to find out who it is. The only reason he would not is if he knows who it is and doesn't want to interfere.

Yeah, I told him that when he was going back. He said, I forgot something. I thought it was going to be to go find out who the mother is, but instead it was to save. Yeah.

He had to save Davina McCall from.

Getting who I, while watching this, as an american, realize was the real host of that show. I looked it up afterwards. I was like, that's hilarious. Because I was like, are they really going to let that character die that way? I mean, that's not for a Christmas specialty, to have a Christmas tree fold somebody closely. And then the fact that it was actually a real host of one of those shows, I'm like, well, of course the Doctor had to save it. And I thought that, again, was a lot of the let's tie this all in together as a big episode.

Didn't she also lend her voice in the 2005 reboot Davina Bot?

Yeah, the Davina bot. Yeah.

And not to be pedantic, I think that's the right word. I'm looking for Josh's. But didn't Susan leave in Invasion of the Daleks instead of the Daleks master plan, which is what Barbara and Ian left at the end.

Oh, yes, you're right. Except the Daleks invasion of earth, because there's no story called Invasion of the Daleks. Yeah, see, I feel really bad for speaking ill of the chipnell years because. I don't know, I feel badly about that. Jody was great.

Jody was great. And the fugitive Doctor, that whole thing was great. I think it was just a very muddied. I think the first series of Jodie's was so getting away. They didn't want to bring back any returning villains, monsters, things, and it just wanted to be its own. So it was very much like a twilight zone version of Doctor who or black mirror episodes or black mirror Doctor who. It was Doctor who in, yeah, too many cooks in the kitchen with all those companions, too. But, yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't like to besmirch it, but it is my least favorite.

I think that's the beauty of fandom, is that you have bumpy eras. You have people who otherwise are very talented, creative individuals who may not either be the right fit or may have just missed the mark. And we all know that's happened. I mean, how many times that happened in an entire season of Star Trek? We're just like, wow, that entire season didn't work, or close to it, depending on the show. And so that can happen, and we can sort of, like, get past that. What's really neat is that this is a show that has that kind of natural, built in regeneration, as one might say, to get us to the next level of where we're getting this clean slate. And now we have it. I'm mystified by why I like it so much, but why I simultaneously why it does feel like coming home again. Because it is this high definition, high budget vibe to it and feel that we didn't have before. Because when I was going back and watching some of the 10th Doctor, my memory did not recall the graininess and the fact that it was in standard definition, it was not at all shot in high definition. And, yeah, David Tennant looked like a child. He looked like a baby. And I never saw him that way. I always saw him as like, well, I guess he was a youngish doctor, but now looking side by side, I'm like, wow. Which made me realize how the years were. And, guy, I saw you earlier. I saw you earlier. We were making the reference to 2005, and then all of a sudden I saw you doing the math. You were out loud doing the math. And we all went, oh, that was a long time ago. It was. That was a long time ago. And by the time the new series officially starts, it will have been 19 years since the reboot occurred.

Reboot.

So that's really quite a time to both bring actors back, but also sort of come back with what we have now. And that's a sort of blow in my mind. But here we are again. Ruby feels like Rose, but feels like her own character, feels actually, in some ways like the same youthfulness as Rose, same like age, same sort of economic background, but a little more self assured. And I think that comes from that family structure that they're building this episode, which is that, yes, she is, as they say, a foundling, but has a real family. That is her mother, that is her grandmother, and the enthusiasm and brightness with which she was doing things, even while having all the bad luck. I mean, I dropped one bag in the day and I am just going to be pouting for 6 hours. She had goblins messing with her for three weeks. It was still pretty cheery and just like, getting on with it. And that energy was something that I see from a character like that who's had a bit of a rough start. Questions about their beginning, but an incredibly supportive family environment and people who made it very clear that, yep, you are a valid, loved human being. And now she's, as a result, the ideal companion to go off to. The doctor who himself is now in that position, having healed because of the work of the 14th doctor, which is technically ongoing, sort of in the same timeline. I mean, they're neighborhoods apart at this point, I'm guessing. So now these two very feel powerful people about to go out into the universe. That's the sense I'm getting now, is that they're not babes in the wood. These are actually going to be some pretty powerful people to reckon with once they find themselves in the other end of time or wherever they end up.

Was I the only one who got subtle Clara vibes off of.

I literally have the note. I have the note written down for that complete Clara vibes think. I think it's an aesthetic feel, too. Yeah.

But there is also that kind of self assuredness that Rose lacked. And there's also, I couldn't help but notice, like, this is really Russell T. Davies doing post. Stephen Moffat doctor who the thing with the crack reminded me of the 11th hour. The whole thing where the companion meets the doctor as a baby and then goes on to travel with a doctor. Like that sort of resonated with the 11th hour. The way that the companion is. She has a mystery. She's like a puzzle that needs to be solved.

So.

And also in Clara's introductory episode, or she joined the show proper. I'm not talking about where she was. Souffle girl inside. Yeah. That whole thing with her parents meeting and the leaf and something about chance or fate reminded me very much of Ruby with coincidence. And bad luck and the power of coincidence and all that stuff. So I don't know, it just seemed. I'm not saying that Russell T. Davies was inspired necessarily. There are things that kind of reverberate throughout the show and it's clear he's been watching. He's been watching the show, which is interesting because I feel like watching the Chibnall years, I felt like Chris Chibnall stopped watching after Matt Smith.

Yeah.

It was just the vibe that I got. I felt like there was nothing that the show had introduced in season 8910 that felt like was engaged with or acknowledged in the chibnall years. I could be wrong again. I don't mean to cast aspersions, but I feel like I keep talking shit about Chris Chibnel's time on the show. And as much as I keep saying, I don't want to do that, you.

Have your own trauma to work out here. We all went through that. Do you think that there was any. The focus on coincidences and luck that had a lot of that, even the way they're about the language of rope. There was a lot of stuff over the years where they talk about almost these mystical things, but then they end up being grounded in, well, yeah, the probability. And what does probability mean? And it's sort of fun. They get to play with that. So that's where we are with this. What I loved about that was they let it. Because he says, the Doctor says, honestly, he says, so, wait, are goblins responsible for all accidents? I don't know. Maybe they are. And I sat there laughing. You know what? That would actually just make sense. Well, yeah.

I mean, that line was great. And that also shows how the Doctor's mind works. And it also kind of shows, it's sort of a depiction of that thing that I was talking about earlier, where to watch Doctor who. It's kind of exercising your imagination. Like, you need to have the kind of mind that will encounter that question and then just say, yeah, maybe, and then go from there. But the flip side of that moment you just described was the line toward the end of the episode where the Doctor is, I think, speaking to Mrs. Flood, and he wonders aloud. He's like, am I the one who brings the bad luck?

He still has doubts.

Very ominous.

He still has doubts. He's not perfect. I think that was the point, is that he may have healed the Doctor, healed thyself, but he didn't become flawless. And those doubts will still be there. But he does what you're supposed to do. He quickly conquers his doubts, because he's like, wait, am I the bad luck? And you even get the sense, like, is he about to just run off and leave Ruby? No, he stays there with a Tardis and opens up the door. So that was sort of the throwback to, like, he's still the Doctor, he's still going to question himself and good, because otherwise they'd really be in trouble. The Doctor always gets into the most trouble when they begin to think themselves as a God. That was the brilliance of Tennant's end run. And one of those specials towards the end of that was it called. What was the episode was the one on Mars. Yeah. And that was where it was the Doctor triumphant. The Doctor can do anything, is going to go around time fixing everything and, yeah, that doesn't work out. That doesn't work when you need that humbleness, that bit of doubt, that bit of questioning and openness, and that's where we are. But some confidence. Cool. And I use this term, I think, in the complementary way. There's a swagger that the doctor has now that comes with that kind of confidence. And I was reading that there isn't going to be a one set wardrobe where there are going to be some wardrobe changes between episodes and it's going to be, well, what are we going to manifest today and what's that going to be? And I'm excited for that because I think they're taking advantage of this actor's talents and capabilities. You're talking about the musical, musical aspect to it. If you got it, use it. If they can sing, if these two actors can sing, use it, make it part of it, because it's really something we haven't seen before. But I don't think that was really part of the cast and calls in the past. So I think for this, there might have been some of know. Are they more multifaceted? Bring Neil Patrick Harrison as. As the villain, as a toy maker. Well, he became an actor that was very, you know, really good at physical acting and humor and dancing and everything else. So I think we're going to get more of that this season, which is very fitting. The Disney brand. Disney wants that, I would think it's very Disney. Lots of dancing things, lots of moving things, lots of stuff to wow us. So I think we're going to get more of that this season. And if you said that you got a musical episode, go with it. Star Trek pulled it, know, and goes all the way back to Buffy, as far as I'm concerned. And you can really have a lot of fun with that. It can be bad, but I think when the actors are having fun, it still works. The ideal audience has fun. And that was what we were, again, missing in the previous era, is where was that fun? Where was the joy from the actors? Were they actually having a good time on set?

I also want to just briefly mention, because I thought it was really fascinating, that scene with the police officer, which is a great scene, was written and shot in response to a Disney note. They said that they tested the episode and they felt that the audience should see the Doctor sooner. So Russell T. Davies went off and wrote that scene. What's so brilliant about that, though, is that. And this is what a good writer does, what a good producer does. He took the note and then he ran with it. He sketched out this nothing little character, but made you really care and gave the Doctor that great Sherlock Holmes moment of deduction where you get a scene of the Doctor being very doctorish and very impressive and, you know, kind of evocative of Paul McGann in the tv movie where he was telling everyone their future. But, yeah, that scene exists because of a Disney note. And what a good writer producer does is they take the spirit of the note, but then they spin it into something. And the fact that that scene was singled out as such a great scene and a great moment.

It was wonderful. It was a really wonderful moment.

Did you guys see the trailer for series one? I guess we're calling it season one.

Was it the full trailer? I just got the little. Like that. It's coming. Was there something I missed?

Yeah. If you go on YouTube, you can watch the trailer for the season. I mean, there wasn't anything in it that I found really spoilery. But the energy was there, the vibe was there and I'm just really psyched. I can't believe we have to wait till May. I thought it was going to be like, comes fast.

It'll come fast.

I know. It always does. Any closing thoughts before I close this out?

Yeah. Why didn't we fix the cracks? Yeah, they're still there. It's really cold tonight. I want to know what happened to the cracks.

That's a good point. Maybe the sonic screwdriver doesn't do plaster. I don't know. It doesn't do drywall.

I bet you there's a reason for that. There's going to be a recurring thing about that. We're going to find out. But I'm still like, really? It's Christmas and you left them with a crack in the house. Doctor, you could have come with something.

He's busy. He's got places to go, things to see. By the way, I love the Houdini reference because that hot summer with Houdini, because I watched it recently. But John Pertwee's third doctor mentioned that he was friends with Houdini. So now I'm imagining John Pertwee was the one that had that hot summer with Houdini.

And was it just because it was.

Hot outside or was it a hot summer? I mean, he had a little smirk. Line reading was suggestive.

I can't wait to see the collective naysayers heads explode over their interpretation of that one line.

Yeah, well, there also seemed in the trailer to me to be some tension between Jonathan Groff. Yeah. So the naysayers should just wait, I guess.

I think they're leaning so heavily into the controversy side in a way that is also showing how silly it is. And I think that you have a lot of choices on how to deal with it. But this is sort of where I'm feeling like they're going with it, which is like, yeah, lean into it. Poke the bear a bit. Because what do you have to lose if you do anything? You lose to begin with. So let's just go all in on it and sort of hoping that that sort of bad response burns itself out real quick, which I think will happen because I'm getting this flashbacks to the introduction of Captain Jack and later on Torchwood where there was some pretty heavy pushback and that now it's just like, yeah, I mean, that's Russell Davis saying, I'm going to go ahead with this. Come along with me if you want. And I think we are not going to be surprised to how many people do still come along. They'll grumble about it and I can't believe they're doing this. But hey, if you write a good story, you write a good doctor, you make the companions compelling and interesting and the journeys fun. People are going to watch. That's what it all comes down to is that if it's good enough, people are going to watch, even if they find themselves offended. I've been offended at countless things and have been like, well, that was still good. I'll watch.

Yeah, I mean, if it's good, it's good. And maybe ideally those people who may be offended by certain things but are still compelled because the show is good, maybe it will help them get over those hang ups about things that they are struggling with. I mean, I think that's why they're there in the first place is to normalize all this and be like, guys, it's not a big deal. What are we doing? Well, if there's nothing else, that's all for us this week. We'll definitely be returning along with the show in May. And perhaps we will have some new episodes in the interim, depending on how trash compactor and my life go. But to be the first to find out, please follow and subscribe to Tardis rubbish on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. I want to thank my guests, John, guy and back. You're all beautiful women, probably. And until next time, laugh hard, run fast and be kind.