S2E7 - The 'T' Stands for Troll: EMPIRE OF DEATH

Hello and welcome to TARDIS. Rubbish. I'm Josh, and today we're talking about Empire boy. Oy, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. Of death. Whenever I see a Doctor who titled Something of Death, I think of the ambassadors of death and that weird little sound effect that they put on the title card. You know, Michael, you said, I think, last week that the third Doctor era had horrible sound design, and I would say it was more experimental and that, I think, was an example of it being experimental. But anyway. Yes. Empire of Death, the season finale of season 14, stroke one. Pick your poison of Nchiri Gatwa's first full season as the Doctor. And joining me today on this half remembered idea of a TARDIS, he is the former engineer of the game of Rasalan live play Doctor who rpg podcast and player in the upcoming good chaotic rpg podcast, it's Michael a. Nixon, emphasis on the a.

I'm back.

She is a comedian, writer, author of official Star wars reference books as bylines and nerdist fandom, Sci-Fi.com and D and D beyond. She played an incarnation of the Doctor themself for three seasons of the game of Rasalan podcast. Welcome back, Riley Silverman.

Hello. I will also be a player on the good chaotic podcast with Michael Enixon.

It's true.

Okay, so let's start with overall thoughts on Empire of Death. Michael, would you like to start us out?

So I had to, like, sort of re. You're. You're watching. Last week, I sat here and I was like, oh, it's part one of a season finale. Who could have guessed? And then this week, I had to be like, oh, right, it's part two of a Russell T. Davies season finale. So, like, I had a nice time. And some of it, there was like two scenes that I don't know if needed to be there, but were fun and interesting acting exercises. And the ending had a strong emotional ending and a good solid tease to the next thing. But some of the stuff just doesn't congeal. And to me, the resolution doesn't entirely make sense. But that is also like a Russell Davies doctor who thing. Like, the thing I sort of had to modulate my expectations on was like, okay, so peak tv, prestige tv, a full season of Peter Capaldi dealing with depression is like, not what Doctor who is going to be on Disney. Like, I'm not going to get that show ever again. And I just sort of have to relieve series nine. I let you go. You know, this is like a different. We're going back to the first new who era and something that's way more family friendly and way more kids entertainment, which is. I just. I've got to be. That's good. That's great. It's, you know, new fans boldly pushing forward, introducing a new generation of people, the sutec. Cool. Like, for me, yes. Good stuff. But for, like, new fan, I worry that this was just, like, a huge bomb of lore at the end of a reasonably approachable season.

In regard to the lore, do you mean like, just the sutec of it all?

There's so much like. I mean, we literally got a clip of Susan, like, classic doctor who Susan colorized, which is just. This really did feel like the budget amortization series finale. Like, you got, like, the memory TarDis baked in. You got the Daleks colorized clip was built in. You got basically the setup and framing of the tales of the Tardis for Pyramids of Mars that I definitely was not able to watch before this. Cause that would have been impossible. I kind of felt the seams of the show in a way that I sort of haven't for the rest of the season. A positive note of that, though. I didn't get to say this last week, is going back into the time window. I think that's one of the coolest uses of the virtual production screens I've ever seen, is creating that kind of VHS using the artificiality of that background and in a way, using it wrong to create that artificial distance in the space they're in. The is, like, one of the most clever uses of that technology again, I have ever seen. So, like, I don't want to. I feel like I'm already talking too much in, like, both. I don't know. It was a good piece of television. It was a good use of production. It was a good. All these things, but in the end, I'm just like, you dragged Jackal God by his collar back into the thing that made him a turbojack all, and that killed him. What do you mean?

Yeah, don't think about it too hard. Just kind of squint and, like, it vaguely has the shape of what it's supposed to look like. But, Riley, before we get any further, your overall thoughts.

Well, I do want to say, in defense of the memory TARDIS thing, it seems to me, like, based on production time, that they built it for this episode. And then we're like, hey, while we have this cool memory TARDis set, let's use this as a bumper to bring classic who serials back with a nice little sweet interstitial that's kind of my vibe of it that they basically like, well, we have this cool set. Let's use it for something. So that was kind of nice. I do love that for the tales of the TArDis pyramids of Mars bumper that they basically were like, let's have Millie and Judy have about a ten minute filming thing right before we go to lunch and then we'll be good. Like, it really was like. I was like, oh, they're gonna have, like a cool. I thought it was gonna make a clip show or something. I was like, no, it was maybe. Maybe ten minutes of their day. And then there's a special. I. It's funny because in the vein of Doctor who, modern Doctor who, since 2005, there's always been this kind of scoffing comment of like, well, you know, Moffat's good at writing individual episodes, but he's not good at writing a whole season. And I'm. I'm starting to get mad about that because looking at this now, I would say that out of all three of the modern showrunners, Moffat has a more consistent track record with sticking the landing of a season than any of the other three showrunners. I think that the Matt Smith big bang two parter is excellent. I think, as Michael mentioned, heaven sent is just like one of the most perfect episodes of Doctor who that exists in my mind as a Doctor who fan. It's gorgeous. I love the last Peter Capaldi two parter with the Cybermen, the Doctor falls two parter. Like, I love those. So I feel like Moffat, more than anybody, knows how to build a finale that does feel like it built in from the previous season. And I think Russell gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that he hid bad wolf on things for a whole season. And everyone's like, oh, he was so subtle about it and it's like, yeah, but that's. That didn't really mean anything. Like, it was just like, yeah, you decided it was important at the end and you made it like a thing. It doesn't actually. And that's kind of how I don't feel like Russell has shown me. Actually, in my opinion, the best Russell T. Davies season build towards the finale is the way that in season four with the stolen Earth is that each episode that season dealt with a world that was missing and we never really, like, were told that. It was just kind of like a mention of this planet is gone. And so when you got to the end and you're like, oh, the Daleks have been slowly stealing world while building this device or whatever. Like, that's part of it. That was the only time that I really felt like, oh, this all came together in a really satisfying and interesting way for me. And I actually really liked that two parter a lot. And it was a very fun, emotional, like, oh, here's all of our friends from all the different shows. And that was great. This one, I really feel like he just pulled it out. I mean, I guess I know that he didn't. I know that, like, it's been the he who waits has been a thing since even before we had the shooty episodes, like, back in the day of Tenet episodes, and, like, talk about, like, the boss, and which I also don't even understand, like, how has Sutec been the boss? Like, is this. Or is the boss somebody else? Is. Is misses flood the boss? And is Sutec, like, was. Was the toymaker talking about Sutec when he's like, that's somebody else's game, or is that setting up a future thing? I don't know. And I think that's part of the problem, is I don't really know what is supposed to tie together and what's not supposed to tie together. And I also feel like I'm not someone who cares about canon. Like, I don't care if things tie together perfectly with canon. But I also think if you're gonna drop in, like, Russell, obviously it was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if Sutec has been riding the TarDis since the 1970s? But there's so many times where you're like, wait, so SUtec was just hanging out when they were painting flowers on the side of it to remember Clara? And he's like, oh, that's good artwork. Is that, like, a thing that was happening? Like, what happens when Idris is the Tardis and the Doctor's wife and she never mentions, by the way, the egyptian jackal God has been hanging out. I don't know if that's important to you at all, but just want to let you know that's a thing. No, you know what? Don't worry about it. There's so much going on right now, I don't want to tell you about it. I'm too busy dealing with the fact that your love triangle is dealing with an aging situation here again. So I don't know. So, like, that bugged me, and I just. I don't dislike the way the ruby Sunday thing ended, although I know a lot of people do. And it's very funny because a lot of people who seem to love Ray, nobody are real mad about Ruby Sunday. Nobody. But I've had people complain that they set up a mystery. They told us as the audience, this mystery is important. And then at the end, they were like, oh, it's only important because you put energy into it. And it's like, no, you put energy into it, and you fed that energy to us, and we responded to it. You can't be mad at us as an audience for, like, investing energy in a thing you told us was important. But I digress. The problem I have with the resetting thing is, like, okay, so why was it snowing? What does the snow have to do? Like, why was it snowing every time? Like, you're telling me that this woman just, like, ominously pointed and that was her way of naming her child. How does pointing at a sign name a child? Because nobody ever spoke to this woman, so nobody knew to call her that. Did she, like, point at the sign? And then we didn't see a moment where she was like, oh, that's great. And, like, ran over to the baby and wrote, like, a note saying, oh, ruby, by the way, just, you know, is a good name. Like, that. There's no explanation as to why she's called Ruby because the mom pointed at a sign. And, like, I'm just, like, frustrated by that. I also. I legitimately hate the disrespect that's being put on Carla Sunday during this entire season. Like, I think that first I was. I didn't notice it as much, but as it's going on and on, it's really bothered me that every time we get to, like, a cut of, like, in goblins, when Ruby's gone and Carla becomes this terrible stereotype of an unloving foster mother who's only in it for the money, like, only because this one magical baby is not there, then we have this section in 73 yards, which, again, I understand, is, like, it's a magical impact. It's why it's happening in a weird way and pushing away Carla. But Carla is suddenly so cruel to Ruby in a way that, like, is really uncomfortable, but, like, that's a thing. And then we get it again. Ruby is looking at her for her mother in the last episode. She's like, it's jarring to me that she's yelling, mum, mum. When, like, the person who raised her and has been there for her is, like, right there. Like, she's more invested. I get that she wants to solve this mystery, but it just feels like Carla is just a functional person to her and not like, the woman who raised her and her mother, who, in one episode, she makes a big deal of saying, like, no, you didn't let me finish. I want to go to Christmas with my mom on Christmas Eve. And I understand, like, that's supposed to be her, like, saving face, but it's like, Ruby only cares about her biological mother the entire season and keeps shoving Carla aside. And then we get to this moment towards the end where they're, like, at the Sunday home, and they're looking at her memories, and Ruby is sitting on the other side of the couch from Carla. She's sitting next to her birth mother and cuddling with her and being super affectionate with her. And I'm just like, this woman deserves better. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I like Ruby Sunday as a character, but I don't think that Carla Sunday is being given the respect that she deserves. So that took me out of a lot of it. I'm also. I'm kind of over. Everybody dies. Just kidding. Nobody died stories. And I think Russell has done it to us twice now because we already had it with the sound of drums, where the master basically, like, has conquered the earth, and then it just gets waved away, like, ah, that never happened. Don't worry about it. And, like, this one literally is just the end of Infinity War. But Thanos snapped his fingers twice instead of once. Like, right down to the dusting. And I, like, I'm really mad that I was put through the emotional wringer of watching Kate Stewart die, only to then be like, just kidding, she's fine. And holding hands with a handsome young soldier. Like, it's just. It really bothers me that happened. Like, and then for all the sutec of it all, now I'm turning into Michael, where I'm just, like, ranting out every thought, let it out. The sutec of it all. I don't see the purpose of bringing him back if this is what you're going to do with him. I don't. I think, like, it all, it did. It was a cool moment last week. If you're a longtime fan. If you weren't a longtime fan, you either had, like, a, oh, okay, so this God of death is back, or you were like, I don't. A friend of mine, Kim Rogers, wrote a whole essay about it as how last week was the first time she's ever felt like the show was calling her stupid for not knowing something. Like. Cause, like, she said, it felt like watching the, like, end credits scene of a Marvel movie and being like, oh, this guy from the comics is here. Like. And you're like, I don't know who that is. That doesn't mean anything to me. And that's how the Sutec reveal felt. Like it was built up. Built up. Built up. But if you didn't watch pyramids of Mars and you didn't watch the Tom Baker years, I mean, first of all, you're missing out on some great stuff, but that's your choice. But you don't know who it is, and it means it's not like, even with the master reveal, we had the. You were not alone. There's other Time Lords out there. There's something. There was, like, hints at something, and it's made very clear who the master is to the Doctor almost immediately when he's revealed. When Sutec appears, it's like a lore info dump, like Michael said, but it doesn't really have any emotional ties to the season we've just watched. It doesn't have any ties to shooty's doctor, specifically, where, like, Missy was very tied to Capaldi's doctor and Missy, like, if you, at that point, Missy wasn't presented as, like, this is a new season where new fans can come in and join, like, Peter Capaldi's first year was very much a like, reaction to previous seasons. So Missy made sense as, like, oh, she's mad because John Sims Doctor felt abandoned by the doctor at the end of. End of time. And so, like, missy has this kind of, like, no, I'm gonna prove to you that this is, like, wrong how I was treated and stuff like that. And, like, you're just like me if you're given the right tools. So that built from previous things, this felt much more just like, oh, I'm sutec. I'm here. I'm a jerk, and I'm gonna kill the whole universe. And hopefully you understand why. And, oh, don't worry about it. Cause you're gonna defeat me with a rope. So it's fine to have an episode go through such dramatic stakes so quickly and then be undone so quickly. It just didn't feel like any of it mattered, and it felt like it was way too easy, and it bothered me. I did not like this episode, and I'm actually pretty mad about it.

Well, for me, going back to what you said about the Kate, like, dying moment, as soon as that happened, I was like, oh, there's just a hand hovering over the undo button now. Like, there's no way you're actually killing her off. Like, it's not gonna happen. So it's like you said, exactly like Infinity War. I'm just like, oh, this is, we're just in the suspension point. Like in 73 yards. That is explained to us is like, okay, we're in a suspended timeline. None of this is gonna count. Like, there is some. Okay, so the thing that bugs me about the rope thing, thing is if the Doctor in the remember TARDIS had just said just a casual mention of the language of rope, like using magic to reinforce the remembered TARDIS, just casually would have been useful. And like, using the language of, like, using a different magical system to trap sutec. Like, now I have to just do all that in my head where instead I have to wait 25 years for the, like, 15 year old who's watching this episode to become the showrunner of Doctor who and then make that canon. Like in 2078, just before I die, I just do a second draft. Like, the whole point, especially if you're.

Going to reference the glove, which is from that same episode, and you're going to make the glove the linchpin of it. It's like, use the thing from an episode that ties into the type of monster. And the thing about the 15 years waiting for a new showrunner, I think that's my biggest problem with Russell being back is I like Russell. I think he makes good Doctor who. I think that the show might not have come back without him. So I think we might have ended after Chibnall. But I'm so sick of all the showrunners being all the guys from the wilderness years. I'm ready for people who grew up and learned to write tv and have making television since 2005 to start running Doctor who. I'm sick of Doctor who being, oh, man, wasn't this thing from the classic series cool? Because, yes, it was because it was cool then, but now I want new things. My favorite things from modern Doctor who are all things that the showrunners brought that were new. I like the weeping angels. I like the silent. But, like, we keep getting cybermen, we keep getting daleks, we keep getting the master, we keep, now we have sutec. I just, I want new villains that are built from and develop out of the things the Doctor is currently doing. And I don't know why we can't get that. I don't know how we are now on coming up on 20 years since this show came back and yet we, I can't think of almost any season finale except for possibly the big bad in Pandora opens where the villain wasn't something from classic Doctor who in some way.

And even, like, big Bang and Pandorica has the, like, murderer's row of villains show up in that episode, be like, hey, we're all here. We opened the closet back up. I think it's telling. And I feel like I've been consistent about this. I certainly hope so because I do feel this consistently. The thing that has hurt the last, the post pandemic years of Doctor who is the insularity of the writing. I think Chibnall and Davies and all three of the modern showrunners are at their best when they trust other people to write the show. Like, one of the best episodes of the season is Rogue, which was written by Kate Brioni. And I can't remember the names at the top of my head, Breonni and Heron, but they're terrific and they had an absolute new energy and modern voice. And I go back to, you know, series nine, which in many ways felt like the showrunner tryouts and, like, the big winner of that year to me were like, jamie Matheson and Sarah Dollard and they have not shown up again, basically. And I'm like, let's call them. Call them.

I maintain that in series eight, Jamie Matheson nailed the 12th Doctor before any other writer did twice in a row.

Yes, yes, yes.

I love and Sarah. Yeah, Sarah Dollard should absolutely be.

She should be. I don't understand why she's not writing.

Now an episode of season now at least.

Like, yes, she should be getting them off at treatment now. Like, we need, like, you're saying we need, like, modern. We need those new voices. Like, we need people in shooty's age who grew up watching David Tennant running around on tv on, like, hd beta tape. Like, absolutely. Russell T. Davies resurrected Doctor who twice. Two times. Two whole times. Like, through sheer force of will. Like, I can't be mad in this episode, he, like, unconsciously or consciously, it's not mentioned, but basically, like, restores life to the doctor who universe. Basically undoes the flux without being like, ha ha, I'm undoing your thing. Like, he just sort of casually is like, hey, don't worry about it. Everything's lush again. And if you want to read that in your head is like, okay, the whole universe ending thing that slaughtered all the life and then we stopped talking about it, that's probably been undone by this, right? Okay. We can be fine by that. We can go back to, like, vortis or whatever, but at the same time, like, the thing in that sequence that is exciting is not vortis or like one of the other, like thoros beta or whatever the hell else he names from 1980.

Spiridon.

Spiridon. Exactly. Like, yay. The stuff that's exciting is the oud.

Sphere and peladon re mentioned. When. When are we gonna have peladon come back?

Yeah, it wasn't. You're right. Not enough of the old planets. Mondas. I thought it would have been the one thing in that sequence. It would have been hilarious if he was like Scarrow and they just kept going. I think that would have been.

How does Russell two Davies of all people, not reference Klum?

Yeah.

Raxacorca Fallopatrick. Don't worry about it.

Yeah, yeah.

But the things that are exciting in that sequence are the Ood sphere, which is a modern, relatively one of the new who creations, and then Aqua Santa, which we have that modern connection to from this episode with the interaction with the kind woman, which is like, again, like, I like that scene and I like having the Doctor get to have those moments, but I don't entirely know why that scene is there other than like we had to fill a day. Like, I don't understand what that's doing there.

It's obviously how you get a spoon, basically.

Yeah, it was all about a spoon, which in the. Remember Tardis, the 7th Doctor's jacket doesn't have a spoon in it. Like, what do you mean?

Excellent point.

Well, okay, in defense of that, I think maybe you can't use something from the memory to fuel the memory. Like it has to be.

As soon as I said it, I was like, yeah, right. He literally said it has to be something real, feeds the thing. Yeah, yes, you're absolutely, yes.

Why did it have to be metal though?

Yeah, there's a lot.

Yeah, I mean, cuz spoons are made of metal. That's the answer. That's the problem. So many questions are answered by the fact that it needed to be that answer. So that's why it is that thing just a big flaw with these.

Yeah, like going back to the magic thing. Like, why wasn't it just like he needed iron, like a magical thing.

I do like that he at least kind of tried to explain why SUtEC is a God now instead of just being like an ancient alien that, that seemed godlike of like, oh no, I ascended the godhood while I was cruising on your tardis. Like, at least like, at least they tied that in because that was like one of the number one complaints last week was like, Sutec wasn't a God before. Why is he a God. Now I want to know why all the gods are jerks. Like, I want to know why the entire pantheon are people who hate their domain or want to eliminate all life. Like, that's. Why is every pantheon anti life. Like, I can at least understand why Maestro wants to only hear the music of the spheres and not have outside creation, just have that be part of it. But at the same time, it's like, really? Because most gods are fueled by people giving tribute to them in their. That's kind of what divinity is about in most representations, is, like, people bringing you aspects of your divinity. So, like, if there aren't beings to create life and create music eventually, like, there is no new music, and you're not being supported as a God, so you lose your omnipotence at that point. Like, I don't know. But the idea that, like, maestro's goal as the God of music is to eliminate all new music is really weird to me, and I don't understand why Toymaker wants the world to tear itself apart. Maestro wants the world to stop making music and die. SUtEC wants to have the entire universe stop living and die. I. And even that is like, okay, but once the whole universe is dead, then there's no more fueling death. Like, there is no. If there is no life, there is no death. And like, most. Most pantheons that have a God of death, they're not evil gods. Like, like, hades is not an evil God in greek mythology. And, like, I'm not saying that set or sutec is not evil. I don't know in for sure in egyptian mythology, because it's hard to know because a lot of it's, you know, anglicized and appropriated egyptian lore that I've heard. Like, when I'm playing my vampire, the masquerade game, I'm not getting, like, legit set myth, you know? But it does feel like typically, even when they're evil, they're part of a cycle, and it's like they're. They're part of a cycle where life is created, then death happens, and death is a natural part of life. And so having a God, that's just like, nope, all death. Oops. All death is kind of like, I don't get what the end game is here. Like, what do you. What do you want at the end of all this besides just to hang out and go, yep, I killed everybody.

Well, that's kind of why at different points during this season, I was kind of half thinking maybe misses flood was that other side of the pantheon. You know, given that she seems to have the ability to regularly break the reality of the program and break the fourth wall. That seems like something kind of godlike, though, in light of the cliffhanger. I don't know if you can call it a cliffhanger, but the very end of last night's episode, I'm no longer sure about that because, like, the way that she spoke to cherry Ruby's grandmother seemed pretty evil to me. Or at least like, I'm not sure. Well, let's put a pin in the misses flood thing for a second.

Yeah. You want to give your thoughts at all? We're half an hour in and you haven't had a chance to talk about. Oh, I'm so sorry.

No, no worries at all. You guys already said a lot of what was on my mind, so that's a relief. But I mean, just broadly speaking, like, what I said earlier to Michael is how I enjoyed this episode and how I was expecting to enjoy this episode that sort of, like, squint and it has the shape of what it's supposed to be. And, you know, I was able to enjoy it on that level. And one of the things that I have had to relearn or re remember watching this season, and I've also seen a lot of other people on social media seem to forget or also go through this process of re remembering is like what the first four years of knew who under Russell was like. And this finale is very reminiscent of a lot of his finales. It's sort of, he works with this, like, emotional logic, this associative logic. You know, like you were saying about the thing with the spoon and the rope and the magic. Like, why didn't he just make an explicit reference to this new system of magic that he had already established? It's because the thought is there. If you bring it there, it's because it's that sort of, like I keep saying, associative logic. I'm not sure if I'm deploying that term correctly, but it's sort of like the vibe moves in that direction, so it kind of works right. You know, it's funny, we were talking about on the boom episode about how Steven Moffat's plots are like swiss watches and Russell's aren't in the same way. They like, gesture at everything interlocking and fitting together, but it's more sort of like associative. It's like it's got that shape that it should fit.

I have such a weirdly specific example on the watch analogy. I'm sorry. For some reason, my Instagram feed shows me weirdly intricate watches, and there was this one, like, chronograph. I don't understand, because Aldous Hodge is one of my favorite actors. He builds his own watches, so Instagram thinks I'm watching.

Also, I know Michael well enough. That makes the idea of Michael getting weird watch feeds is, like, the most Michael thing I could think of.

Also true. I use tiny watch parts in my miniatures to making hobby stuff. So I think I've completely confused the Internet that I am just, like, a watch fiend anyway. Okay, might be a watch fiend.

Noted.

Anyway, I mean, you use watch parts, and you love doctor who, so the Internet's like, this guy loves time. Just give him all the time.

Steampunk freak. We love him.

No wonder you love season nine. It's that opening title sequence. It's pushing.

Oh, my God. It's just gears. It all makes sense.

It all makes sense.

Holy crap.

Okay, so back to. Okay, so if Russell Davis is, like, a switchwa swisswatch practical on your wrist works, Russell Davies feels like I saw this thing at my feet of, like, a chronograph, which is this, like, biggest chunk of, like, blue metal with all these intricate gear works and all this stuff. And the person demonstrating it pulled out, like, a little arm from the watch and deployed this little thing. And the watch, like, signed a name as part of, like, the mechanics of this watch. And, like, why is the watch signing a piece of paper? And that's the Russell Davies, like, watch chronograph thing. It's just, like, its complications in, like, watchmaking. Like, complications are the things they're supposed to make a watch more impressive. Like, it's got a date thing. It has a. It shows you the phases of the moon. It'll tell you the weather, actually. No surprising amount of watches. Uh oh. I might be a watch guy. So it feels like the Davies construction is just, like, this elaborate, hyper complicated chronograph. And it is a beautiful piece of engineering. But I'm also like, why the fuck does this thing have an arm with a pen on it? Like, what are we doing here?

Or would you say also that alternate take is that Davies is a sundial where it's, like, you will also get the time, but it has to be at the exact right spot. The exact right angle.

Yes.

Yes.

I think we can end the podcast right now. I think that's just. I think that. I think that just sums it up perfectly. I think that's a perfect summation.

Chibnall's the guy who holds his. Who looks at the sun and holds his fingies up to the sun and counts the fingers to the horizon and goes, that's so many hours are left. And that's how he's doing. Sorry. I'm so sorry.

Chibnall's the guy who says, chibnall's the guy who says, hey, what time is it? And someone says, like, quarter to four. And he goes, no, it feels more like 415. And that's like, that's Chibnall. Like, Chibnall. Chibnall is running late. And that's why he's like, I don't know. Whatever time it is, I just gotta get there. That's. I think that's what bothers me is so much is like, chibnall took a lot of heat for the way that his. I mean, deservedly so, for the way that his finales very much felt like he was rushing to get a deadline done. And that was, like, a lot of what where, like, you're like, wait, why was the master Rasputin, like, wait, why was the. Why were the paintings missed? Like, there's so many things and, like, you're thrown so many new concepts in a Chibnall finale that you never have time to question something you already saw. And so for him to get that much heat for it and then to see Russell do it now kind of twice with the giggle and with this that you're kind of like, hey, guys, Russell also does this thing, and you were so excited that he, like, I've seen. I saw somebody say, I like this episode, but I think it's because I've been so broken by Chibnall that I was just happy to see something like this again. And I was like, this felt like a Chibnall finale to me.

This did not feel, yeah, well, here's my thing, though. The difference is Russell really excels at getting the emotions right. He's very adept at crafting emotional characters and emotional stories that you respond to the way they are intended. I felt the resolution of who is Ruby's mother mystery to be very emotionally affecting. Even though it was, you know, I'm still hard pressed to explain exactly the connection between the Ruby's mother mystery and the sutec of it all. I'm not quite sure why Sutec wasn't able to divine the identity of this one woman. Like, he was also relying on that crappy VHS CCTV footage. Like, I'm not sure exactly, but that's like, you know, again, if you squint, that stuff doesn't matter as much. And it seems like. It seems like a backhanded compliment. It's not intended to be. It's more like, you know, that's just the register that he works in, and you just have to get something out of it that you can, or if you're expecting something else, you'll be disappointed. Just a couple of things I just want to respond to that you both brought up. Before I forget, I managed to watch the envision commentary. I stayed up last night, so I watched it again with commentary. A few interesting tidbits. First of all, Riley, your feeling was correct. He wrote the memory Tardis. Then the set was constructed for this episode, and that's exactly what happened. They were about to dismantle the set, and he was like, wait a second. The set is incredible. The 60th is coming up. Like, why don't we use this to create this whole series? Which is very interesting to me because there's this thing going on with memory that wasn't clear to me exactly how it connected to everything. There's a lot of, like, memory shaped things in there, but I'm not sure exactly, you know, what it all adds up to. I'm also not exactly sure why Ruby's memory is so key. I guess it's because it's her mom. I guess that this is all hinging on. I'm not entirely sure. But the other thing, too, that I thought was really interesting, based on what you said, riley, is that Russell said specifically, his resolution to the mystery of Ruby's mom was his response to the last Jedi and the rise of Skywalker. He said in the commentary, they made Rey a quote unquote nobody, and he loved that. And then he said, and then in the next movie, they sort of changed it, and they made her somebody important. So this is my response to that.

Is to just do the exact same thing but not do the second part. Like, I like this. So I'm making my. Like, I'm making fan. I'm making Star wars fanfiction and putting my doctor who episode.

Well, that's sort of what he does, though, because, like, a lot of his doctor who is in direct conversation, or at least in response to whatever else is going on in pop culture. You already made reference to the infinity war of it all. You know, he's aware that he's responding to these massive pieces of pop culture that are out there, and it either, you know, you can either like it or not. I mean, I'm somewhere in the middle.

It's part of the DNA of the show.

I'm not against the idea of doing it entirely. I'm just against it not feeling like it added anything to it. Like, I think that, for example, I think the Michael mentioned Rogue, which I thought did that much more effectively because Rogue was actively a commentary on, like, cosplaying in this world. And, like, rogue felt like, oh, when you're trying to, like, be part of something you're not part of and the harm you cause when you do that and stuff like that, when you, like, take things a little too far, like, your obsession with something, whereas this one just felt like, like you said Russell was like, oh, I like that thing in last Jedi. So I did it, like, and it's like. But it didn't really feel like it brought. It wasn't that interesting to me because, like, I've already seen that done. And I get him saying, like, no, I'm not going to undo this. And that's. That's fine, but, like, for me, it's like. But that doesn't make me feel better about it in the context of the story that you're telling. Sure, sure. Especially when you. When you, as the storyteller, as Russell, make this the important mystery of the season. You name an episode, the Legend of Ruby Sunday. You make this mystery be the mystery that is so important to Sutec that he undoes his plan, basically, because he's so obsessed with finding out the answer to it, not the mystery of who the Doctor is and where the Doctor is from and who his parents are. Like, where did he come from? Even though you've been attached to TARDIS and you've had a vengeance against the Doctor for, at this point, thousands of years? Basically. Like, that's not the thing that matters to you. That means, like, does that mean SUTEc was, like, hanging out for the billions of years the Doctor was in the confession dial? Or was it, like, did the time kind of just sank out while, like, that it came back to his TArdIS?

Like, I'm sorry that maybe Susan was, like, hibernating, maybe.

And maybe, you know, actually, now I think about the memory tart when he was in the confession dial, the Tardis didn't come with him. So maybe that was, like, fine. I don't know.

That was when you were earlier mentioning that someone was painting the Tardis as a memorial to Clara. That's what was happening to SUTEc while the Doctor was in the confession dial.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, Sutec was just like, ah, Riggsy, fantastic work. Rigsy. Hear me, Riggsy. And it's I will kill you last, Rigsy. I shall save you for last.

Yes, speaking of Rixie, what happened in flatline? Was he shrunken down to like a mini sutec? Like one 8th his size or whatever? I don't know. I will have my revenge once I'm fully repaired. I shall defeat you all.

That's what's happening just in the background of flatline. But we can't hear it.

It was his version of misses flood being like, I have such plans and now those plans are being destroyed.

Just Gabriel Wolf having to suck in some helium for a voice session.

Real quick to comment on the succession plans and like, three showrunners of a certain vintage, I have to imagine knowing the dire situation that the show is in pre Russell's return and with all of Russell's emphasis on setting the show up to last another 60 years and like, clearly, like, I would be shocked if a part of his plans behind the scenes weren't figuring out some kind of a succession plan. And I think whether he stays for three years or four or five, I don't know. I have to imagine his intention is to bring somebody younger, some younger blood to hand the reins over to. It's just really tricky. And this isn't confined to doctor who, it's not even confined to tv. But there is a larger succession crisis because baby boomers and Gen Xers aren't retiring and the number of opportunities to learn how to do this are dwindling. So the challenge is how do you find someone who has the right voice and temperament but also has the resume to get the stamp of approval from the BBC and from Disney? Right. So it's a tough needle to thread. It's no wonder Chibnall ended up where he ended up without a clear succession plan. And even for Steven Moffat, I mean, if not Chibnall, I don't think there was a backup. I mean, Russell was really lucky that he had Moffat.

I mean, Chibnall even, like Moffat got to do. Moffat did his last season even though he was planning on leaving earlier, like, Moffat intended husbands River Song to be his last episode. And then he ended up doing series ten because Chibnall was the only person they had ready that, like, they knew they could give it to. But I also think, like, I agree with you 100% about the succession problem. Like, that is definitely an issue. It is even worse, like, what's happening. I mean, it was one of the big things in the writers strike was that like because of mini rooms, we're definitely, we're not seeing new writers being given a chance to, like, learn how to write tv. And we're also getting a lot of problems where, like, somebody who has created a new idea for a show is being asked to show run and write an entire show for themselves without having ever worked on a show before. And then what ends up happening is they get, like, hamstrung by the network with notes and stuff like that, but they don't know how to. How to, like, navigate that world. Or you get the Marvel thing where an executive producer that's not a writer is being considered the showrunner. And then that was one of the things that why they ended up having to throw out a lot of what they did with Daredevil and go back to being like, oh, we're gonna do a more traditional tv structure for this show, because they were trying to do Marvel shows as movies, basically, that were being cut up instead of as television episodes. You know, there's a lot of stuff, like, with Bridgerton, Shonda Rhimes was saying how she's not used to making tv the way Bridgerton is, where, like, they have to write an entire season of a show and then film it and then edit it and start releasing it, whereas, like, she used to the network model where, like, you're making the show as you're going and constantly working on the show, but this, like, streaming model is like, no, we're spending two years to make a show. That's why shows are taking so long to come back now, is because so much work has to be done to finish the show before it can air. So the entire thing, and that's not just the writing thing that's happening in industries across the world where boomers and Gen Xers are. They have to stay in the job because they can't make enough to retire off of, or they're not retiring at all. And younger gen people can't move into it. And I think what's going to end up happening is millennials essentially are going to get cut out of the process, and then when there finally are openings, Gen Zs are going to be coming in to do it. And so we have to wait that generational gap almost to get a, which is very frustrating as a millennial who's part of this structure, but with Doctor who especially, it feels like, I feel like it's kind of a self made problem because previous, like you said, like, Russell had Moffat. Yeah, because Moffat had gotten to write episodes of the show. But when you look at the Chibnall era, the vast majority episodes are written by Chibnall. And the thing is, it's not untrue of Russell's era. Russell wrote more episodes, I think, than indian showrunner because he had longer seasons. But every season had people coming in and Moffat has a lot of other writers coming in to write. So it is a little frustrating that you're not being asked like, why is Jamie Matheson not being offered the showrunner job? Why is Sarah Dollar not being offered this job? So I agree with you. It is probably likely that Russell is looking for somebody behind the scenes to take over when he's done. But up until now, I do think that this lack of succession is starting to hurt the show and I think it is going to hurt the longevity of the show in ways that I think that they're like the powers that be that are not giving them a budget for writers, for example, is causing right now the only real thing you can think of is I hope that Brioni and Kate then are being talked about as possible showrunners and that's why they did rogue. I hope that that means that, like, maybe that's why that Russell was so willing to let rogue stay alive at the end and have the, like, come find me element because maybe it's similar. It's river song being like, oh, we're going to bring this story up later. So that's why it's allowed to continue because right now that's. Those are the only two people that are even possible to be in this. We don't know what season two is going to look like. As far as runners. I know that. I know writers. I know that Russell has said there will be more other writers for season two than there were for one. And there was kind of an idea that, like, he just had to crank out this season. But it's also like, isn't it faster to have writers working on scripts independently of each other than it is to have one writer writing eight episodes? All but two episodes had to be written by Russell. But it's like, I hope season two has a cavalcade of writers and I hope that season two is giving writers a chance to write for the show in a way that then they can be pitched as a possible showrunner afterwards. Or maybe what Russell can do is bring on somebody to co showrun with him for a season or so. Or like, the way that, like, Moffat kind of secretly had Mark Gatis, not that secretly was pretty open. He basically had Mark Gatiss as like, a writer's room with him and, like, he pitched ideas with Mark like, Mark was frequently interviews, talking about things they were working on together for the season. Like, I think he just wasn't, like, the credited guy, but he was basically, like, the brain trust of the show. And similar to how, like, Star wars has your story core, it's like, well, maybe what Russell needs to do is, is bring on a person to be, like, his apprentice showrunner for a whole season with him, and then, like, when he's ready to, like, step back down, then he can hand it off to them. And, like, I think that's where you run into, like, why doesn't the budget consider writing in the future of writing as, like, important as the special effects of something might be?

The thing I hope is being worked towards with the success of the specials and success of season one is that Davies would move into more of, like, Alex Kurtzman for Star Trek or Kevin Feige for Marvel, sort of executive producer overseer kind of role, and then have sort of his voice, his authorial take on the. A wider swath of Doctor who because he's, you know, they've got the hooniverse logo for some reason. They're talking about a sea devil show that the rumor keeps happening. So I think, I don't want to speculate on, like, succession plan stuff too much, but, like, it feels like that's part of what's going into this season, you know, and what's going forward, but we'll see.

Well, I think there's something to that because the show is now being produced by Bad Wolf, which is Russell's company.

So it's not Russell's company. It's Julia's company. Russell was brought in to work with bad Wolf, but he doesn't have any ownership of the company.

Oh, okay, my mistake then.

It's Julie Gardner and her partner's company.

Right.

I think they have a great relationship, but he's not financially invested in the company.

I think the point that I was gonna make still holds the idea that when there is a new showrunner, the apparatus responsible for the Russell version of the show is sort of still there. So the idea that they would maybe grant him some sort of an oversight role of, like, the whole hooniverse a la and Alex Kurtzman or something, I think makes sense.

Yeah, it feels like why Russell was brought back in, because he made that commentary about building a hooniverse and then, you know, like, a few months later, it's like, hey, Russell's in charge. Doctor who again. It's like. It's like somebody saw that and go, yeah, that's the guy we want to have doing it. So I do hope, Michael, that you're right. I hope that he kind of does that. And we get people running the show who can bring new refreshments. Like, you know what? I will say one of my favorite things, and it's funny because the Internet got mad about this because they're so reasonable normally. But like, Leslie Hedlund said that she made a point of having a writer on the acolyte who had never watched any Star wars so that she could understand if the story was working and satisfying if you don't know Star wars stuff. And people lost their minds about that because apparently you can't even be an actor on a show that's from a pop culture thing without being a huge super fan, which is absurd. But I think that's great. And I think it's part of why the acolyte is actually pretty good is because if you don't know all these things, you still can follow what's happening in the story. And I think that is what I think Doctor who is kind of lacking a lot of times in a lot of these seasons. Cause I've been racking my brain trying to think of since I said it, I've been trying to think of finales that didn't have tie ins to older Doctor who things. And the only one I could think of is Jodie. Whitaker's first finale was also a mess because it was like a rough draft. But, like, even techtooine at the end of the flux still has the Sontarans, still has the Dalek, still has that whole massive thing. Even when you think of tektooine as a brand new character and his Highness child is a whole new thing that was unique to Shibnall's era. It still had to have always classic who monsters to make it make sense or make it appeal in their mind, not make sense because it didn't make sense. But I'm trying to. I'm literally rocking my head to think of a single finale of a single season, aside from series eleven, that didn't do that.

Yeah, I mean, Russell's time on the show, I think, was consciously structured to, at the end of every year, like, reintroduce a new aspect, a new, sorry, an old pillar from Doctor who. And, you know, you can tell how far down the line we've gotten that now we're up to Sutec, who appeared in one story, you know, 50 years ago.

You know what? I stand corrected. Moffat actually, Moffat did it twice. Moffat had one season that was about the silence and river song. And one season that was sort of like his, his Gallifrey stuff. So actually, Moffat did it a couple times in a row. So I'll give Moffat credit at least for doing it like he did. He did it for season six and season seven.

If you don't count the Gallifrey stuff as something that's, that's, you know, referencing the old show. But, yeah, I mean, it's tricky because a part of it, I think, is this larger trend toward franchises and interconnected universes and the deep cuts to the lore, like, to create this sense that there is a there there to get invested in, to be invested in. Like, this could be a lifestyle. If you want it, it's like, if you want to get invested, it goes deep. So. So come on in. The water's fine. On a similar note, a part of me, as I was watching the finale, and I mean, again, as I say, I was largely enjoying myself, but a part of me was like, does every season finale have to have universe ending stakes? And I was like, in modern who? In modern shows of this genre, of this size, I think they do have to. I don't know how you could do, you know, a season finale that was smaller in scope in terms of the stakes just because that's, like, the nature of how these things work. And then when I started thinking about that, the choice of Tsutek as the villain started to make a little more logical sense to me because, like, he already did the destruction of reality. We've done rebooting the universe. Like, there are only so many ways to skin this cat. So, you know, how do you do a universe ending threat that, like, has some resonance for the audience because it's like, such an abstract idea. It's like, you know, I was also thinking how interchangeable the effects of this are with the flux or even the big bang, with the universe shrunken down to one planet being warmed by one exploding tardis. It's sort of like the way you make it work is if you marry it to an emotional story with the characters that you care about. And then sort of the window dressing of the hows and the whys in particulars of the universe ending thread are sort of beside the point. And I could see why he's like, oh, okay, I can do Sutec, at least for some in the audience. It'll have that extra sort of thrill of, oh, he's doing sutec. How cool. I mean, not to say that makes it any more effective. It was just sort of my thought process of, like, how do we. Why sutec? Why are we doing this?

I think you're right about all that. I think everything you're saying is accurate. I think my issue is more with the effectiveness of it and the execution of it, because I think you're right. Like, I don't feel like SUTEc was adequately married to the Rupi Sunday story. I think that it felt very much like a yemenite. Oh, I need to have a reason why he's too connect. He cares about the mystery of it. Like, it just felt like. It felt very utilitarian in a way that didn't work. And I think, like, I think you nailed it with the idea of the personal stakes have to be important for the universe ending stakes to matter. I. I do think that that is a flaw in modern franchise, especially filmmaking storytelling, as it does feel like every finale has to be a universe affecting thing. And I do think that is something the audience gets fatigued from pretty quickly. I think that. I wish that there was a way to kind of pull back those stakes a little bit and have finales that are more personal. Honestly. Again, I think one of the best doctor who finales is the Doctor falls, and there really isn't that much of a universe ending stakes. It's kind of just like, yeah, the impact on the. This station, on this homestead with these Cybermen is a thing, and this is why the Doctor has to make a stand against it. And I think that is like, there's not really a ton of, like, oh, the Cybermen are going to leave this ship and go out and conquer the whole universe. Like, I mean, there are Cybermen. They're going to eventually, but that's not the point of it. And I think that we don't get many of that with Doctor who. And I'm with you. I don't. I don't. I don't think Doctor who doesn't need to. I think doctor who having big universe threatening threats at the end of each season makes sense because it is like, that's the Doctor who stands against the monsters or whatever. I just felt like this one, the sutec thing really didn't feel like it tied into the overall, like, feeling of the rest of the season because it wasn't a season about, like, life versus death, and it wasn't, you know, with past seasons, I feel like those things have kind of come into play a little bit more. Not always. Not with Russell, especially, which is fair to say. Like, then why would he do it now if he hasn't done it in the past. But like I mentioned with the stolen earth thing, that was one time where it did. And I thought that was the best thing he did with it, in my opinion. Whereas Moffat, I think always really did kind of pull those in. Looking back on it, the only one I can think of that really was just completely connected to the season at hand was the river song one. I don't think the rest of his are all still also tied into classic who, but they all felt like they came from a thing, even the Pandorica. There was always this idea of the Doctor was trying to figure out what was happening and he got to this point where the pandora opens, oh, it's been him all along. Like, that's been a thing. You know, the issue I have here is that, first of all, the resolution of Ruby Sunday and the memory of her mother being like the big day saving thing, we already got that with Bill Potts in series ten. That was like, when that was the defeat of the monks in series ten, which were also pyramid based. So there's a lot of overlap there. But that was the big thing. Was this mother mystery or like the, like the memory of her, of her dead mother was the, like, big thing. And also a storyline where the foster mother who had raised her and was good to her kind of got side, sidewind, but that was more because of Moffat's inability to write the families of his, of his companions. So he's not perfect either. But going back to think about the whole, like, oh, there's a lot of wealth of knowledge here if you want it, I don't disagree with that. But I also find as a doctor who fan, one of the hardest hurdles that I have to overcome when I'm trying to get people to watch the show is the most common thing I hear is it feels like there's so much of it and I don't know how to begin. And we were told repeatedly that series season one with Shootigatua was an onboarding season. It was designed to get new people in. And I feel a little pissed off that I was told that. And I, watching the show was like, oh, this first episode does a really good job of onboarding new viewers, of being like, let's talk about babies, which I don't like the episode overall, but baby's opened with like, here's a Wikipedia article of what the doctor's life is like going through time. Things get changed. We don't normally affect history, doesn't normally get affected like butterfly effect, but we have a compensator for that. That's great. We go to this world. There's a monster. Oh, this monster is actually not evil, and we should save it too. The doctor likes to save everybody. He can't have great. That's all there, and that's awesome. And you're like, cool. Then you get to Maestro, hey, here's a whole new mythology that's being introduced to the show. So this is not something you have to know about ahead of time. Great. Then you get to boom. Hey, here's a pretty dark episode. The doctor is pushed to his limit emotionally and kind of loses a little bit. Hey, the doctor's kind of dark sometimes. This is great. And just on it. Here's 73 yards. Sometimes it shows real weird. There's explanation for it. That's great too. On and on and on. Like that kind of thing. It goes on. And then you get to this one, and it's like, oh, by the way, here's this doctor's enemy from one serial from decades ago. Unless you happen to also be really into ancillary media, like, if you didn't know this one, you have no idea who this guy is. And screw you if you don't know. We'll throw a special out so you can rewatch it later if you want to. To me, it's like, I feel like people who don't know the show already were. Hopefully. Hopefully. It was one of those things where when you watch it, you go, okay, I don't know who this is, but I understand he's the God of death. Okay, great. I get it. Like, fine. But if your whole pitch for the season is this is a new season for new fans, and then you throw in a climax that requires you to know a deep thing about the show. It's just like, why did you tell us this then? Like, why did you tell us to do it this way? If you're not gonna follow through on that promise, let's take some calls.

The thing that's funny about having Riley and I on this is ultimately like, the member of the good, chaotic cast, whose opinion I'm most interested in is Joe, who had never watched Doctor who before this season. She got into it because of Chudi Gatwa. She started watching this year, and I'm. She's literally, we joke in the group chat for our show. Like, she's gotten into Doctor who despite us. She did a doctor who show for, like, three, four years, never touched the thing, started watching it basically independently of us. And now I'm concerned she's going to ping right off the finale. Like, I don't know. So the point of view I'm honestly most interested in is, like, the new viewer, and I haven't been able to hear that sort of side yet. I'm really curious about that. But from the, like, internal perspective, like, inside super, inside baseball perspective, like, yeah, this is, I don't know, I'm worried.

There's three kind of pillars of Doctor who fans. Well, there's more than that. But the three tv, specifically tv show, there were plenty of people whose Doctor who is big finish, and that's like, that is Doctor who for them. And so, like, I'm not trying to erase them, but I'm saying as far as the show is concerned, the three pillars are brand new viewers who are just getting into the show. Now. There are classic fan people who have watched classic who and like you said, josh, like, know there's like, a rewarding backlog of things there. But then there are a pillar of fans who really only got into the show in the modern show and only been watching since Eccleston, and that is Doctor who for them, and that is their experience with Doctor who and the show that they like. And I do feel like whenever the show really leans heavily on a classic monster like SUtEc that has not really had any real estate at all in the modern show, I do feel like there is sort of like a, oh, well, this is only for the who, the classic fans, really. Then, like, I feel like there is, like, I, I have been on panels at Gallifrey, one where I have seen classic who fans dismissed how much modern fans like the show, and they'll say, like, things like, you just like the pretty boys or you're just here for that romance thing. You don't care about the show at all. And, like, I hate that kind of gatekeeping. And so when I feel like the show is kind of doing a bit of that gatekeeping, it bothers me, like, because, I mean, like, Russell has been bending over backwards to make the show accessible. But I also think when it comes to story and the through lines of story on the show, I think that's his blind spot of it. I think that's where he's like, well, I'm telling me doctor who stories that I think are cool and are fun to me, which a showrunner should do, but I don't feel like he's necessarily doing the thing of, like, reaching a hand out to new viewers in the show. Like, I don't think you should require new viewers to have to go watch tales of the Tardis, which only aired in the UK unless you bootlegged it in America, which I don't think anyone did. But, like, I don't think you should have to have that. I don't think you should have to go to Tubi and seek out classic who episodes to understand what's happening in modern who. And I don't mind Easter eggs to ancillary media when it comes to franchises or previous things. I don't mind, like, oh, if you know this connection, that's really cool. Whereas you do have to know what happened to in Pyramids of Mars to really understand what's happening with Tsuteca. Otherwise, if you don't know that Suteca is just a guy who makes death dust and is a jack.

Well, to be fair, though, I think that's kind of what was going on here. So John, another frequent guest on the show, he is one of the fans who hasn't seen any classic who, and he's like, very invested in the modern incarnation of the program since 2005. And, you know, he was saying for him, it still worked as this God of death and destruction that they had been trying to build up the whole season. And the fact that, you know, it was a reference to a classic story was the icing on the cake a little bit. It was like, oh, that's cool. But the idea, though, like, functionally, you don't really have to know anything about what happened in pyramids of Mars to enjoy this story beyond the fact that the doctor has encountered them before. And to be fair, there are a lot of new villains, new monsters, where even though they haven't featured in an actual story, the doctor says, oh, like, I have experience with this, or I have faced this before in some unseen adventure. So I totally take your point. And I did have to kind of cackle out loud when I was like, yeah, new viewers. Yes. Season one. Yes, sutec. What the fuck are we doing here? Like, that is crazy to me, season one. And like, I have to go back.

And rewatch this season to feel like if I do feel like they're actually setting up the God of death as a villain, because I think part of the problem is, too, is we had so many conflicting mysteries that it's like, hard to know which mystery is feeding into this one. I do think you kind of have to know pyramids of Mars a little bit because it explains why Sutec's defeat wasn't his defeat and why he's been clinging to the Tardis. So, like, it does feel like it's a huge lore drop right then to be like, oh, you thought you killed me in the climb train, but actually I was hanging on. It's like, is like the fact that you have to go through that many steps of explanation indicates that the audience needs a little. I don't know. I get what you're saying. I still feel like it's weird to take a be like. I feel like the stakes are lost a little bit if this is just a generic villain to you. And that's.

I agree. And the show certainly treats it as something that is not just a generic villain. But speaking of the multiple ongoing mysteries, there are two I want to touch on. So we're not just completely dropping Susan. Seems like we went through the trouble of actually showing a clip of her. She was referenced again as something that, you know, as I was saying last week, Susan has been invoked. So now that that's hanging out there, you can't. I mean, you could, but you probably shouldn't, like, just forget about it again. The doctor said in the tearful goodbye with Ruby, Ruby was like, you left. You said the same thing to Susan and you never went back to see her. And he says, that was a mistake that I made. And so it seems like Russell is keeping this thread alive. So do you think we will see Susan in some way, shape or form next season?

I kind of expect to, yeah. I don't know if we will or won't. Or at least she'll be an element coming through it because there's also, like, the element of, like, the doctor saying, I think about family in ways that I didn't before. And it's also the weird element of the introduction that Susan is his future grandchild and not his past grandchild, which I think was like a line last week. I was the thing I actually liked last week's a lot. I liked Legend because of that kind of stuff, but I just didn't think this paid it off very well. But if it turns out that Carol Anne Ford was on set somewhere in season two and we just don't know about it because it was all behind. It was all inside shots and not outdoor, which you kind of have to do if you're bringing Carolyn Ford back to Doctor who. You've got to film it as an out, as a inside shot. You know what they should have done? They should have just filmed tales of the Tardis with her and, like, filmed the show the same day and then been like. Like that would have. Maybe they. Maybe they did. Maybe we'll get more tales of the Tardis coming up before season two. But, like, that way they can, like, oh, no, she was just there filming this. But maybe they didn't do that so people wouldn't know she was on set. But I. It would not surprise me at all if Carole Ann Ford shows up in season two for sure.

I hope so. I think it would be just a huge missed opportunity. We still have Caroline Ford. She's still doing it. She just did a new photo shoot with big finish in a new costume for the Susan box sets. That really confused a lot of fans and for some reason convinced them she was going to show up in that costume in the episode. I want to turn the chair around and sit down in a Captain America style and be like, okay, we got to talk about fan theories. All right, we all. We got to just. We're being unhealthy right now. Internet people. I saw people talking about, like, there's no way they would waste an actress of this caliber on kind woman. She's got to be the 16th doctor. And I'm like, I've never heard of this woman before. I don't know what you're talking about. You're doing this to yourself. Like, you are doing this to you. And I just. I need to sit. Everybody just likes, stop it. Like you're doing this. I'm really concerned.

I saw such a breakdown that Susan. That. That Susan Triad was Susan and misses flood was the Ronnie, like, I saw, or Ruby's mom is Susan and misses floods. I'm like, you're only saying that because the Ronnie was name dropped in one.

And it's happening. Exactly. It's happening again with misses flood's outfits because people are noticing that she keeps dressing as previous companions, apparently, which is, like, because she's in a gray sweater with white collar points poking out. She's dressing as Clara, which is null. Null.

She did say clever boy. She did say clever boy. All right.

She did say clever boy.

Fine.

She did whatever.

But I don't. I don't think she's Clara, but I think Russell wants us to.

Exactly. At the end of this episode, she's doing Romano one cosplay. Like, he's. The t stands for troll. He's messing with us. Like, I'm telling you, like, none of this means anything. But, like, tweets per hour, x's posts on x per hour. Ugh. It's about throwing coal at us. It's not about, like, texture.

So I will not be so crass as to ask you for theories about who misses Flood is. But I will ask, do you think that misses Flood is a returning character or a character that's wholly new?

Maybe a mix of both. I still kind of hold to the theory that when we first see misses Flood in Ruby Sunday and the church on Ruby Road, I mean, she's not involved in anything and then only like something affects her and changes her in some way because she doesn't seem to know what the Tardis is at all when we first see her. And she's just like a grumpy old lady. And then after that is when she starts being like this kind of sweet but menacing little thing. If she ends up being the master, I'm gonna be so mad. Cause it's literally just the missy reveal again. But I do wonder if she's the hand that picked up the master's tooth because it was a feminine hand. So it might have been her and we hadn't met her yet, so we weren't speculating her at the time. So I'm wondering if something happens in season two that ultimately explains why misses flood changes and becomes a new character. Basically at the beginning of Shooty's run. I would take back a lot of my criticism, Rusty Ted Davis right now because that would be some good doctor who plot scene like that would be amazing. That's the kind of thing we could never do in game of Raslon, even though we wanted to, because so much of a story was based on what the players were going to do in an episode. So I would actually love it. Misses Flood is not someone we've seen before, and she's someone who's been impacted by something that happens in season two and that's why she's the villain. But I don't know. Misses Flood's a very interesting character to me.

Yes. No, I agree with that. Another little tidbit from the envision commentary. Washington Russell alluded to the fact that season one and season two were conceived of as, like one unit of story. So there are things that have been set up that will connect directly to things next season. And actually, you know, in light of that knowledge, you know, what you're saying doesn't sound super crazy to me. And, you know, similarly, I feel like I get the sense, you know, Michael, you've talked about how it does seem like Russell is. Has been watching the show since he left and some of his storylines have some, like, Moffat esque vibes to them. Ruby Sunday, for example, seems like Russell's version of, like, the impossible girl and this whole thing with memory and all that is very reminiscent to me of, like, we're all stories in the end and just like, you know, things like that, I feel like it's not like he's just returning to where he left off. He's like, sort of. Yes. Anding a little bit of. And, you know, Moffat's first season as showrunner, there was that whole thing with the great jacket mistake in time of angels, flesh and stone where it turned out that that was the doctor from the finale and everyone was like, oh, no, it's just a production mistake and blah, blah, blah. So I think the idea that something later he had been seeding the effects of in his first year is certainly something I think is in his bag of writerly tricks. But I. Yeah, I guess. Final question, how do we feel about this season overall? It has been one of the most anticipated seasons of the show, warts and all. Were you satisfied? Do you think it missed the mark? I don't know how you feel about it.

I will say it has pulled off the heretofore unseen story sort of arc in Doctor who of the middle being the strongest part. That doesn't usually happen in a doctor who serial.

Sorry.

But yeah, I feel like the. I like church and Ruby Road, but like babies in court, not necessarily for me to run from boom through to, I think, including legend. I agree with you completely, Riley. I loved last week. This week was frustrating because of how much I enjoyed last week. So I feel like I have my. It's like we've been saying this a bunch of times, a bunch of different ways. Like, I have my standard end of Russell Davies season feelings about the end of this Russell D. Davies season. I'm excited for what comes next. I'm going through that thing where like, for the next few months I'll be apprehensive and then by the time we get to season two is coming this date, I'll be like, just feed me the slop. I don't care if it's bad. Like, I need new doctor who. I'm dying here. So by Christmas, I guess. And plus, Christmas is a Moffat special. Christmas has Nicola Coughlin. Christmas is a very, very exciting prospect now that I sparked back in my memory what we're getting with joy to the world. I'm already doing it to myself now. I'm like, I'm anticipating, I'm excited.

Let's go.

All of my apprehension is fading away instantly. This is the cycle of Doctor who watching the show, being a fan. This is the cycle of watching a lot of modern tv anymore. I feel like you get to the end and you're like, okay, I guess they were a little tired. That's fair. Tough year and you're ready for what comes next. So I feel like I haven't answered the question, but I've also answered the question. I don't know, I'm my standard reaction.

Sort of like Russell.

Yes. Yeah. I answered the question with 15 other questions and a riddle and a joke. Yep.

I think that I'm overall positive on the season. I very much agree with Michael about the middle. I think that I liked Cord more rewatching it than I did the first time I watched it. But I do. I got to see babies in Cord early because I was interviewing Jinx Monsoon for Nerdist and they gave me screeners for the first two episodes, plus Ruby Rowe, which had already seen. But. So I had weeks of those episodes in my head before I could talk about them with anybody. And I was very mixed on both of them. But then when I rewatched both with friends, I actually really enjoyed chord a lot more because I was able to kind of like get past like my solo and also like analytical viewing when I was thinking for an interview and just have joy for it with friends. And I liked that. But I do think that that run from boom through Legend of Ruby Sunday is one of the most consistently good runs of Doctor who of any season. Like, even my favorite seasons usually have a sleep no more in there somewhere in the middle of what's a good run of episodes. I think baby's probably my least favorite of the whole season, but also I understand its purpose as like a primer of what a Doctor who episode is like. I think that maestro took some big shots. It didn't always land, but I'm always okay when Doctor who takes big shots and then the next several, the next like six in a row, I guess, were all pretty good episodes. Doctor who that taken in any season would be like pretty standouts. And for me, the highlight of the whole season was rogue. I thought Rogue was just one of the most fun Doctor episodes I've seen in years. Just a joy. Charming and delightful and taken with church and Ruby road. I think that in general I'm very positive on the season. It's probably up there with my favorite Russell seasons with the caveat of I don't know if I have a single Russell finale that I actually think is like a stick to landing finale. So I think that like, I don't think it's his worst finale for sure. I think that that probably goes to sound of drums, but I think that it's definitely not my favorite of his finales either. I think that boom is great. 73 yards is one of my favorite episodes Doctor who has ever made. You know, we talked about fine time on here already, so, you know, kudos to that one. And Rogue was just like, rogue was like the much needed injection of, like, just a fun, goofy joy thing before we, like, moved into the finale. Yeah, it's funny because there was, like, quotes from the show about how the finale was going to be, like, emotionally devastating. And I don't really think it was like, I think it was nice and sweet, but I don't think it was devastating in any way. I think it was a passable, like you said, squint and look at it. You go, yeah, I can see a Russell finale in there, so I can't even really be mad. It's like, it's what. It's Russell G. Davis finale. It's exactly what it says on the tin. It says Russell Davies finale Doctor who right there. So, yeah, it's what it is. So if I can, if I can repeat my main point a third time, I think it was a really good run of episodes in the middle of a season that were bookended by episodes that were pretty okay. Like, so I do like the tease with misses slut at the end because I don't think we typically get Doctor who seasons that end with, like, cliffhanger or hints to the next season. So the idea that, like, they were made, the only time we really have had that was with the reveal of the war Doctor at the end of name of the Doctor. But that's because the 50th anniversary was coming up and so it was like teasing that. And even that wasn't necessarily like a tease. Like, it was kind of just like, oh, yeah, by the way, this cool thing is happening. But we've never really had a season that fully ended with like, oh, and here's what's going to be coming up next season. Usually a season of Doctor who kind of feels like a complete story and then the next season picks up. The Doctor has been bucking around the universe being a madman with a box, and we're like, oh, now we're gonna find some more stories involving him. But it's a brand new story starting here now.

No, totally. And, yeah, I think that also speaks to this idea that these two seasons were kind of conceived of as one unit of story. Yeah, I think my thoughts on the season are generally in line with yours. I feel overall very positive about it. I agree with that run from boom to Legend of Ruby Sunday is as strong a run of episodes. I am learning to accept my newfound role as the number one fan of space babies. Apparently in all fandom, I think I'm the only one I've encountered who likes it as much as I do.

Well, to be fair, Michael knows this. I'm repulsed by snot and body fluid based. So that really put things down for me a lot. The fact that it has a snot monster ends on a fart joke. Like, there's a lot of reasons for me not to like space babies. So.

Fair point. Yeah, fair point.

It's like a. It's just designed to annoy. We were watching it together and I was like, I don't know how you got through this.

Okay, well, that. That context makes a little more sense. Yeah. I mean, the other thing, too, that speaks to what you were saying earlier, Riley. I think something I'm leaving the season with is I haven't been presented yet, or I haven't encountered yet a third vision of Doctor who and how it operates that I love because the highlights for me this season were things that were either, you know, familiar. Familiarly? Is that a word? That were the things that were working in the familiar register of the tone and the rules of the Russell T. Davies era. Or there was the Moffat throwback. And, you know, with the Moffat episode, I was like, oh, yes, I remember this. I love this. And the larger vibe of the RTD years this season had. And, like, the emotional register that it works in and, like, the thematic ideas and everything, like, I was really pleased. I enjoyed it. I liked it, loved some parts of it. But I am ready for a new voice that has a vision of the show that is not one that I have encountered yet. I am ready. As much as I love this and as pleased and lucky as I think we are to be getting a few more seasons of this, I am ready for a fresh vision of what this show can be. And I think that the show needs that to survive, not that it has to survive. I mean, like, we all assume that all of our beloved storytelling universes have to go on forever, and I guess they, technically speaking, don't have to. But for it to continue in a way that is meaningful and vital and not just, like, rehashing the same old nostalgia set pieces. I mean, for it to be a show saying something worth something, then, yeah, it needs a new vision, a new voice. And, you know, that's certainly not Russell's fault that he's not some completely new human, a new creative mind. It's just something that the show has to sort out for itself.

I think my frustration with the thing I was ranting earlier about, about whether or not new viewers are going to like the show or not, is that I am scared the show is going to go away. And so I have this feeling of, like, I want the show to be doing the things it needs to do to ensure that new people want to watch it and will get into it and watch it. So I think if people look at it as this ongoing thing that's referencing an old show and just kind of keeping that old show's story alive, I think that ultimately we're going to lose the ability to get new viewers into it. And I want, I want. I want ten year olds and twelve year olds and 15 year olds now to start watching Doctor who and go, oh, I love this show. I want a journey with it. So I want this show to be doing what it needs to be doing to make them feel welcome and excited to be part of it and not feel like, well, let me know when you've watched some more stuff, kid, and come back to me. That's, I think, my ultimate frustration.

No, I think you're right. And, yeah, Michael, I am curious. The perspective I'm really interested in is someone coming to this more or less cold, you know, what they got out of it and how the SutEC storyline worked or didn't work for them. So when you speak to your friend Joe, I would love to hear what their thoughts were. Are there any other thoughts or anything? You came into this wanting to say that you didn't get to say just one quick point.

It was in my notes and I forgot to mention it. Kate and Unithr is a show I wanna see. The hiring practices of this organization are insane.

She employs a lot of minors.

I'm not gonna go down that hole. X has got that covered. They've really been posting the hell out of that. I'm gonna let that go. Like, she's just hiring people on the spot. Like it's field promotions and it feels like she's starting a romance with Colonel Ibrahim. She's just, like, the worst boss. I love Kate Stewart, but HR has got to sit her down and be like, you have to. There are. There are some classes we need you to attend. Like, this is. This is getting out of hand.

My only issue with the Ibrahim thing is that I have heard in interviews Gemma Redgrave say that in her mind, Kate Stewart was married to a woman and so the idea that, like, she's starting a new romance with a guy in the office, like, look, she could be bi. I'm okay with that. But it's also like, oh, I don't want to, like, in my head now, I'm like, oh, did she get divorced from her wife? That's a. That's a shame. Like, I don't know if that's true because it wasn't canon. That was just what Gemma brought to the character in her mind. But that was just a thing she said on stage at Galley once. And so now I'm like, oh, but I was hoping that she would. I like the idea that she's, like, this toughest nails, you know, unit director person, but then, like, has, like, a nice, sweet home life at home. And I think that it's almost the exact opposite of, like, most of your, like, tv drama characters where their home life is a shambles because they're so good at their job. And, like, I would like. I like the idea that she can go home and take it a while, take it off, because. And to me, that would imply, like, she learned that from her father because she has a lot of good memories about her father and him being a good father to her and caring about the family and stuff like that. So I like the idea that she has carried that brig lesson onward and she still can be doing that. And again, the wife thing was just a thing she said on stage at one point, but that's been my headcanon for her ever since. And so I kind of want to thank that hand squeeze, which is a comforting, friendly, emotional hand squeeze. Turn me around for that reason. But if it ends up being a thing, I would like. Okay.

No, she's definitely married to Liz Shaw's daughter. It just makes perfect sense.

It's a very competent marriage.

It's an extremely. It's just like Liz Shaw. Her daughter is so competent. If they put her on screen, she would just be solving shit in, like, a minute. Like, they had to boot her off the show or it just wouldn't make any more sense.

Yeah, she's always on the moon still. Yeah.

Do you think we're getting a unit spinoff or a Sea Devils versus human spin off, or are they the same spin off spin off? Like, I'm not. I'm not sure.

I don't.

I feel like there apparently has been a unit spin off that none of us have been allowed to see because every time we come into unit, there's, like, this wacky workplace comedy happening that we don't. It's like the seat. The end of the end of last week felt like in the stolen earth when you're like, hey, it's the people from the Sarah Jane Avengers. Hey, it's the folks from Torchwood. It's like, hey, the unit team is here. And it's like, wait, why aren't we getting this show? I. If we're not getting it, we should be because it's very fun. But I also.

Yeah, a petition for, like, unit, blinks, origins miniseries. Like, we deserve it. They've got everything built. Like, let's. Come on. I want to know what's up with the Vlanx. Tell me everything.

I'm the opposite. I want to know. I want to know nothing about the links ever. I also kind of want the links to be a laid back row.

I also kind of never want to know anything about the. I'm of two minds on this. Like, if we just. If the Blinks is just like. And the Blinks, like, I'm totally fine with that too.

I just love a robot that by definition is, like, built to be chill, hanging back in a chair like, yo, what's up? The Blinks is here. Never explain it.

Yeah, the Blinks was an interstellar DJ. You know what? The head cannon's better than anything we'll get. You're absolutely right.

Yeah.

Based on. Based on. Josh, you're talking about the way that Russell pools things from pop culture. I think what happened was Russell went to Galaxy's edge at Disneyland and then he went into OGa's cantina and he saw DJ. Saw Captain Rex, who's retired from captaining, is now djing at the cantina and said, you know what? I want a cool dj robot too. And he made the Blinks.

That's it.

Headcanon accepted. I like the addition of the laser eyes, but that concludes another season of Doctor who and another season of this podcast Tardis rubbish. But fear nothing. We will see you all again at Christmas, where we will reunite for Steven Moffat's joy to the world, if not before. I have a few ideas of things that may happen in the interim. But until then, thank you to my guests, Michael and Riley. And we are tardisrubbish on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. And please always remember to run fast, love hard, and be kind.