S2E3 - Never, Ever Tell Me the Rules: 73 YARDS

Hello and welcome to Tardis Rubbish. I'm Josh, and today we're talking about 73 yards, episode four of season 14 stroke, season one. And joining me on this terrifying adventure while keeping a good semper distance, he is the host of the secret Origins of Mint Condition podcast, my old friend and frequent guest. Welcome, James.

Hello.

And he is the former engineer of the game of Rasal on Doctor who rpg podcast and player in the upcoming good chaotic rpg podcast. Welcome back, Michael A. Nixon.

Hello again. Thanks for having me.

And she is a longtime compatriot who survived the depths of the Binghamton cinema department with yours truly, as well as survived watching and talking about Doctor who together over a tequila or several. My old roommate making her podcast debut, I think.

Yes.

Welcome, Kelly.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

So, Kelly, we have a tradition here at TARdis Rubbish, where whenever a guest makes their first appearance, we ask them who their favorite Doctor is for calibration purposes. So I want you to be thinking about that. We'll return to this question at the end, and regular listeners may have noticed that last week I totally spaced and forgot to ask Michael to tell us his favorite doctor. So, Michael, be prepared to answer that at the end as well. But let's get into it. 73 yards, the first Doctor light episode of Shooty Gatwa's tenure that focuses entirely on Millie Gibson as Ruby Sunday. Let's start with overall thoughts. James, overall thoughts on 73 yards.

I'm gonna start by saying I enjoyed this episode. The only thing I just. It didn't quite land with me as a doctor who episode fully. But I just. Yeah, I'm very conflicted about this. Part of. Part of, like, being a part of your podcast was to hear your thoughts and Michael's and Kelly's thoughts to maybe help with my own thoughts overall, because, you know, it was a great episode of television. I kind of felt like I was watching the episode of the Twilight Zone, really, which is a fantastic show, obviously, and gave us, like, slices like this of, you know, weird things happening that also get to the core of our deepest fears and our, you know, worst wishes that we would have for ourselves. And so I thought the whole premise was great. I just. I don't know why it didn't land with me as a doctor who episode, because doctor who's been scary, it's been dark. It gets to our fears. And so, yeah, I'm kind of. Kind of conflicted about, but I enjoyed it. I was definitely, you know, spoilers. I'm assuming people who watch most have seen the episode. But, you know, like, when her mom, like, suddenly freaked out and left her and shunned her and stuff like that, it really. That was, like, a real pivotal moment for me and a, like, a really scary thing that, you know, anybody would be like, you know, what is she saying? Like, your own mom is turning on you. So I enjoyed it, but I'm still landing on is. Is this doctor who? So I'm still wrestling with it as we're going through this episode.

Some of what you're saying, I think, vibes with some of what I've seen on social media. But, um, Michael, let's. Let's throw to you overall thoughts on 73 yards.

I think, oh, dear, where do I even begin? As an episode? Like, as a watching experience, it was definitely heck of a thing. I got to watch it with some friends. So, like, being in a room with people is always, you know, generally makes things better, but getting to, like, everybody's reactions, including my own, at when you start hitting the time skips in the story were just, like, tremendous. Like, my reactions to the episode as it happened are things I'm kind of still reckoning with. I unfortunately didn't get a chance to rewatch before this week, but I did get a chance to watch the unleashed. So watching seeing all that behind the scenes context think really helped. Like, knowing this is the very first thing they shot of what I'm totally fine calling season one. Sorry, everybody. Just, like, not only is it the first thing they shot, but it's just throwing Millie Gibson straight into the deep end with her own turn left is a heck of a thing, and I had a great time. I really enjoyed it.

No, yeah, you bring up a good point. That is something I experienced as well. I think the experience of watching it for the first time was one of the highlights of it for me. But, Kelly, what were your overall thoughts on 73 yars?

So I know I'm completely opposite of all you guys and what people have been saying on your podcast. I think Shooty's great. I love this new doctor, but I had been really skeptical of this season from the beginning. The first couple episodes, I was like, is this. Is this because it's Disney? Are we being, like, children oriented now? Why is there a musical number with goblins? And then the next episode is babies in space? And I was apprehensive. I was like, I want to like this season, but what is happening here? So it's only been the last couple episodes that I've been getting into it more, and I do appreciate the themes that they've been setting up with the fairy tales coming true and the, like, the superstitions. Like the Doctor Leddon superstitions at the edge of the world in one of the specials. So I'm getting on board with that now. I do think it's gonna go someplace really interesting, but. So I enjoyed this episode. Strangely, it did kind of feel more like who to me, even though it was who less for most of it. But I'm really excited to see what we're going to find out about Ruby and how it relates to the doctor. I'm excited.

No, totally. And I think your perception of the first few episodes of the season, I don't think you're alone in that. From what I've been seeing on social media, I think some people are reacting to the tone and even wondering if it has to do with the fact that the show's on Disney now. But I feel like if you watch the original Russell T. Davies run, you know, it's completely consistent with the tone of a lot of episodes that were in that run. I mean, if you watch, I mean, if you go all the way back to Rose, the belching garbage can, and the plastic Mickey, you put that next to something like space babies. And I'm like, this is the same show, right?

So I've been thinking about that, like, why does it bother me now when it didn't before? And I wonder if it's just because I'm older now or. I don't know. Maybe I wanted it. I don't know what I wanted coming out of the Chibnall era.

I know what I wanted, and I wanted not to be bored.

Right? It was. I think maybe we need this. This, like, silliness because the chibnil era was sort of so stodgy. And I've made my peace with the childlike silliness because that's the theme of this season and they're going somewhere with it. I'm just gonna forgive it and see where it's going.

I'd say on that front, like, this week's episode, not having the opening titles and doing, like, the title and writer name on screen is a pretty bold announcement this week of, like, this one's serious. Don't worry. This one's. We're doing some drama this week, which I thought was a good, like, legit.

When the.

The episode started and, like, just showed the episode title and, like, shootigatuha was in one corner and Millie Gibson's credit was in the other corner, I was like, we're off to the races, folks. Like, that got me excited from, like, a text, like, a metatextual perspective. So on the subject of music, like, like, having the lack of it even was very. It was compelling this week. It was a compelling difference. The general spirit of this week that I enjoyed was, like, small and scrappy. Again, like, everything about this episode was back to, like, sure, we've got all this money and we've got all this stuff and we've shown you all this cool stuff, but we can also just, like, make some doctor who. Like, we can make, like, you know, a Philip Hinchcliffe scary story for one week, which I really like. I just thought the control of tone was really interesting. And then also, they were in a real train. They went to a real pub, they went to the real cliffs. They have all this incredible virtual production ability. And the first thing they did when they got back in the end of 2022 was go to a bunch of real places and do a bunch of real things and put Millie Gibson through her paces. And I'm glad for it because as much as I enjoy the childish stuff, like the oldie farting spaceship and, you know, the piano key wearing maestro of music, like, I also, you know, sometimes I want to see the doctor on a landmine. Or this week, for example, you know, I just. Yeah, the differences in tone are what make Doctor who strong and seeing the sort of real swings. This weekend last week were great.

Yeah. I mean, the way you can tell that Russell T. Davies is on his game is that Russell T. Davies wrote this and he wrote space babies. So it's like, the show is very. The format of the show is very elastic, the kinds of stories it can tell and the tone can vary wildly. Um, though I do suppose sometimes you can get some whiplash from that. Um, yeah, but, Michael, I think you're really right. Like, this was really a bare Bones episode where the horror was conceptual. It, you know, wasn't about special effects or it was, like, really grounded horror. And, you know, you made me realize, I think one of the reasons why this episode was so tense and so disturbing is because it was shot on location. It was really grounded. It was the first episode since Church on Ruby Road set in the real world. But that episode was, like, heightened. And I don't think it's a coincidence that also, you know, one of the sources of horror in this episode was it's overtly implied that that other aide who was working for Roger ap Gwillim was sexually assaulted, and that was a part of demonstrating how he was so monstrous. And, like, you know, that's not a thing you could have slipped into space babies. I enjoyed watching this episode so much. Like, I was beside myself with how much I was enjoying it and how good I thought it was. And, you know, once again, I go online to see what people are saying about it, and a lot of people are like, you know, at least with this one, it was not the slam dunk that I was expecting. Most notably, I was surprised by my favorite critic, Doctor Elizabeth Sandifer. Her review was not great. And she said at the end, she ended her review telling Russell to, quote, try harder, which I didn't think was very fair at all because, like, I thought he knocked this one out of the park, and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Like, I was just. I was captivated, I think is really the word I'm looking for.

I just want. All right, so maybe part of why episode didn't land fully for me is because maybe I don't fully understand what happened. I've gotten to a point now with certain pop culture things, especially, like, in storytelling and comic books. Like, you know, I've been following this stuff for years and there's some stories that get written and I read them and I'm like, I don't know what's going on, and I gotta ask other people to go to the Internet. And I'm like, so if I can just talk out loud, maybe everyone could. Was the thing, like, she was the older woman this whole time, and when she died, she relived her life in reverse and sent a message to herself to. Not to stop the doctor from tripping on the fairy net so that she undid her time loop is, you know, maybe I'm butchering that, but that's what I got. Is that the correct. Like, is there a correct way? Like, maybe there's. Maybe there is no resolution. And that's the problem, too. I'm just trying to, like, some of.

Okay, yeah, on that, it's unclear. Okay, fair.

Because I've also totally hurt because. Because at the end, the old lady.

Right.

Is back at the beginning of the story, and she sees herself and goes. She, like, said something to indicate that Ruby was her as young Ruby.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that there's any dispute that was Ruby the whole time. But the question of, like, how and why, I think is.

That's the fascinating question to me because, so I have really high expectations for where these storylines are gonna go. So I think once. Once we see the whole picture, I feel like, we're gonna go back to the beginning and appreciate all of these episodes a lot more.

That's what I'm hoping for. Like, that's what I'm leaving room for, because, again, I don't dislike this episode, but, like, I'm. I'm like, well, maybe I'm supposed to be unresolved or not feel right about it, because he's building to something in the 10th or 9th and 10th episodes that's gonna make all this magic stuff makes sense. And I'm just, you know, I'm wanting things before they're ready to be rolled out.

I'm excited. Like, they're hinting at Ruby being, you know, some super powerful being. She might even be one of those, like, toymaker, maestro type of beings. And she apparently can interject into her own timeline, which is not something that the a doctor is even willing or capable to do. So I think that's really interesting, and I want to see how that plays out with the Doctor. She's, like, kind of. She's a different kind of Time Lord, in a way.

Well, that's really interesting, because what I've been reading a lot of people complaining about is the hows and whys of the time loop were a little unclear. But the idea that it has to do with Ruby's essential nature, that we don't know fully yet, I mean, that's compelling. The other thing that I think some people view as a cop out is we never hear or we never learn what it is that the woman is saying to make everybody, including her own mother, run away from Ruby.

I've decided that it doesn't matter what she's saying. I don't think. I think it's more the fact that two iterations of her being in the same time space, like, that's always a hinky thing, right? And so it's just, like, older, her shouldn't be there. I don't know. I'm just. Just to, like, make it make sense in my own head canon. I've decided it doesn't matter what she was saying. It's just like, when you get close to her and talk to her, it just. Some horror washes over you, like, this is wrong.

Or, you know, and it could also just. She's probably. Could be telling each person something different. You know, doesn't. You know, she's a non temporal, normal temporal being who's lived an entire lifetime. Who knows what she's telling each individual person, maybe revealing some truth about them that they don't want to hear or something. So I kind of agree. It doesn't matter what she's saying because it could be something horrific to that person individually.

Right. Well, I really loved how literally everybody abandoned her except for herself. Like, literally herself never left her side. And I don't have any deeper things to say about that. Just that I really loved that for her.

No, Kelly, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that what this episode is about is really that specific fear and that insecurity that's at the heart of this character. Her fear of abandonment, this idea that she was abandoned as a baby. And I think that at the core of her character is this insecurity, this fear of being abandoned. And to go along with what both of you just said, I read a tweet that I thought summed it up nicely from Max Khashevsky. He says, I think the point of 73 yards is really simple. When you feel abandoned, you put yourself at a distance, but you have to learn to close the gap, trust that you deserve love and belonging and reach out to others. Literally. There's plenty of lingering questions, but I think Tardis perception filter plus mysterious broken circle equals Ruby's perceptions of herself come alive basically covers it. So, yeah, I mean, the mechanics and the exact why this is happening and how it's happening are left unclear. But, like, for me personally, and it sounds like for most of you, it didn't really bother me because emotionally, it sort of felt right to me.

It just highlights. It's another thing that highlights parallels between her and the Doctor and the Doctor's, like, character. Character's journey. Like, he's also always alone and he might have people come and go in his life, but ultimately, all he has is himself. And, you know, they're both orphans, they're both mysterious space beings, potentially. So, again, like, she. To me, she's just a different, maybe a different type of Time Lord. And it's just. I just like how they're highlighting the similarities between the two of them.

Yeah, well, it sounds like you're really all in on that. Ruby is some sort of a space entity theory.

Yeah, I am.

You know, one last thing. On the rules of it all, there's a line in the episode that I think pretty much covers it. Kate Stewart says something to the effect of when humans are confronted with the unexplained, they make up their own rules to make it make sense. And I think that that's the key to how this episode works. And I'm wondering is that Russell speaking directly to the audience. And if so, like, do you think that that's a cop out or not?

I mean, there's a couple of those in the episode. He does write a whole lady into the episode to personally insult me for being interested in magic by having her say liminal space and then laugh in my damn face. It's like, got me again, Russia. So I did not love it. But back on the, like, the rules of the episode, I think when you're dealing with folk horror, which is impossible to understand, cosmic forces from before our time or whatever, and then plus Doctor who, which is, like, crazy impossible Sci-Fi and now supernatural stuff from beyond our understanding, it's like sometimes we're just not gonna get an answer. Sometimes you're just not gonna know what's under the sheet. And listen, we're just not gonna know. Or, like, you know, for this episode, like the. I like that it leaves us with questions. And even within the. I watched the. I think I mentioned this already, but in the unleashed for this episode, they ask, like, everybody what their thought of what the woman is saying is, what they think the woman is saying is. And every answer is compelling, and every answer is different. So I like that it leaves us with that conversation to have, especially in, like, a folk horror, impossible to completely comprehend context.

Russell also says in the unleashed, think about what someone could possibly say to a mother to make her abandon her own daughter. And then once you start thinking about that, that's where the real horror starts, right?

Yeah.

And I thought it was really interesting because that, to me, is compelling. But again, that was something that Elizabeth Sandifer was like. That just shows you how much of a cop out it is. And I'm like, what's going on, Elle? I thought you were really gonna love this episode.

It's like the basics of horror storytelling is, like, leave it to the mind of the beholder. Like, what? What are you talking about? What are you doing?

No, I don't think it's a cop out because one of the themes of this season is. Aren't one of the themes of the season that, like, what you put belief in is what comes true? So, you know, like, did the doctor disappear because he believed in the fairy circle? You know, like, did the salt work for the Doctor against the doppelgangers? Because he believed it would. Didn't he even say something kind of like that? I mean, so that's why I don't think it's a cop out necessarily.

Yeah, I don't think it is either, Michael. By the way, I wouldn't take too much offense at the woman making fun of liminal spaces because Russell is clearly, he's interested in liminal spaces. He wrote wild blue yonder and he wrote this. So I don't think he's turning his nose up.

I laughed along with it. Yeah. The TarDis is itself a Sci-Fi magic, a sci fantasy thing. Like, he gets it too. Just, you know, I have to point out that, like, my man's poking fun at me for having faith. It hurts, but I get it. It's funny. That whole pub scene was incredible. Like, I do. I feel like we're talking about, like, the sort of meta structure of the episode, which it begs us to do, but also digging into, like, performance wise, I think basically everybody in this episode brought it. Like, I don't think there's anybody I'm complaining about in terms of performances, you know, would love to have more of the Doctor, but I like, that's that. He just literally wasn't there. He was busy shooting something else. So, like, it's not on the show.

Yeah, that was like, when you started thinking about the episode. I didn't bother me. The Doctor wasn't there until you start thinking about the episode. But then it kind of occurred to me while everyone was talking to bring in another pop culture reference. But this seems like Ruby's own horrific version of the inner light. Sort of like she's. She's trapped in this limited loop. And the Doctor. Because if the Doctor, let's say she was shunted into another dimension or something, I mean, where did he go? But it doesn't matter really, until you start thinking about. But maybe this all happens to her in this. Whatever that time span. It's very in her light, except it's a horrific version of it. And what is, you know, does she get anything out of it or get any memories from it? Clearly not. But it's kind of dawning on me that's what's happened to her in this episode.

Well, not. Clearly not, because at the very end, the Doctor was like, I thought you said you'd been to Wales three times. And he's like, what's the third? And she's like. And I think, you know, the implication is that she has a sense of having lived through this before on the.

Sort of splinter timeline thing. The thing that I thought was really compelling in the Kate scene, first of all, just Kate Lethbridge Stewart sitting down in the middle of an episode was a room full of cheers for my watch. I'm sure not alone in that one. But Kate trying to reassure Ruby by saying, this is a splinter timeline. It's locked to whatever you're doing. It'll be fine. That's Kate being like, anything goes, which is not as reassuring as. As, like a doctor who fan watching you want it to be, but in the moment, you're like, yeah. So it's basically Kate's being like, don't worry, none of this matters. But that's not better. Like, that's not, you know, like that for the. For the people experiencing it. Like, you're still living on the brink of nuclear war. Like, you're still experiencing those things. It's real for them. You know, all that time that the trapped parallel RWbY experience, like, that bubble did happen, and because of it, our ruby heard don't step from the previous self. Like, it's very turn left. And that, like, the. The message through time of, like, well, I guess there's literally anybody who says, hey, turn left and turn left. But the parallel title of this episode could be like, don't step, because it just is like this magical message through time, able to alter things. I mean, the Doctor. And what's interesting about the whole magical thing to me that makes a sort of internal logic is that, like, the TARDIS and the perception filter landing on the circle where it is in that space, and the Doctor being the one to break the circle, it feels like the TARDIS also, by locking, is just like, cauterizing this timeline. Like, it's just being like, I'm locking this down. Deal with this internally. I'm just gonna grow some moss. Don't even worry about me. So from, like, a Doctor who perspective, I kind of got where it was coming from. And from a magic perspective, like, you broke this thing, you have to exchange something to make amends. Which is. Yeah, that's like basic laws of magic, I guess. I don't know, magic rules, sure, but that sounds good. Which I guess means it's good. That's how magic works.

No, that's really interesting. The idea that the Tardis was sort of like, okay, you're fucking with magic. Shit. I can't help you. I am going to cauterize this wound and you guys figure this out if you can. Good luck. Which jives with what Kate Lethbridge Stewart says, which, by the way, something just before on Twitter that I thought was really interesting up until the giggle every time we saw Kate, she introduced herself as Kate Stewart. And in her first appearance in 2012, she explained that she leaves out the Lethbridge because of the insinuations of nepotism or the appearance of nepotism. And like, she doesn't want to deal with that. But then in the giggle upon seeing her for the first time, David Tennant is like Kate Lethbridge Stewart. And then in this one, she introduces herself as Kate Lethbridge Stewart. People online were like trying to read into this, like, why the change? And I'm just like, Russell was writing her for the first time and he wasn't thinking about that. I mean, that's what I think it.

Is also internally, like, the brigadier passed. Like, it's fine, it's honoring him more this way.

Well, that's a good in canon explanation. I actually buy that. But for me, I was just like, no, it's a different guy writing. And that didn't occur to him. He wrote it the way that he thought it. I mean, anyway, James, you were talking about the lack of the doctor and how the doctor broke the circle. That's why he disappeared. You know, what if the doctor was the first one the woman spoke to and he abandoned Ruby first? I mean, that's what that was. Though, actually, in thinking about it, it would have been kind of cool if they showed the doctor approaching the woman and then having that exchange, and then the doctor just books it out of there and Ruby's like, what? Like, what? Like, what the. Though, I guess that would have hurt the progression of the meaningful people in her life who are leaving. Like, at first it's just randos and it's like, well, they don't have any investment in Ruby. And then you see her mother and that's like, holy shit, like, what is she saying to them? And then you see Kate, and that one really hurt me. Like, the mother really hurt, but the Kate one, for me, when she left, I really felt the desperation Ruby must have felt because you got this relief, like, oh my God, she understands what's happening. She's not fazed here, she can help me. And then all of a sudden, when she abandoned Ruby, I was like, God, that's fucked up. This is really. This is a pickle.

I really loved that. I think that was one of my favorite, maybe my favorite part of the episode, because I was like, oh, Kate's got it. Like you said, kate's got it. Everything will be fine. And then Kate leaves too, which I did not expect to happen.

Me either.

I was so excited to see, like, what does a companion do now when they have not even unit to help right after that?

Is that when we get into the first major time jump. It's like five years later or something. Yeah, because. Yeah. Like, I was like, okay, like, now we're with Kate and unit, and now the episode is gonna shift into a different mode where, you know, unit's gonna help out and we're gonna get to the bottom of this. And then all of a sudden, Kate leaves and there's, like, a time jump. I'm like, I have no idea what this episode has planned for me. Like, I have no idea what's going on now. It's just so desperate.

I also really loved how Ruby resolved the situation, too. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I didn't see it coming. I was like, what are you gonna do about this? I had no idea what she was gonna do. And then it was herself again. Like, all she needed was herself. And so I just thought that was poetic.

No, it is. And it's really interesting, too. It's like a similar thing that Donna goes through and turned left, who's another character who lives with this insecurity that, you know, she's not good at anything or she's not worth anything. And through her Doctor light episode, where she's abandoned in her own way, like, she rises to the occasion without the Doctor. You don't need the doctor to make you a better person. You have that within you and you can find it under the right circumstances. But this is a good segue into Roger ap Gillum, this insane, nuclear weapons loving, super nationalist. What did we make of this whole storyline? Like, what do we think Russell is doing here?

Yeah, I was, like, watching. I was like, oh, this is like Stephen King, the dead Zone. That was the whole plot of at least the book anyway. The tv show was different. Well, similar, but different. But the book was leading up to that whole, like, he had the vision of the presidential candidate who was going to destroy the world and became his mission to stop the guy. By the end of the book, I was like, oh, this is what Ruby's gonna do now. But, you know, the thing about that, I mean, obviously, it was a. I'm assuming Russell, as he has with. And the Doctor who episodes are always used. I mean, comment on current political situations, both domestically and over in the UK, I think from what I've read, and, I mean, I know about our own domestic situation, but I also know the UK has its own political turmoils going on right now. And I think he was definitely commenting on that and taking the opportunity to do that. But, yeah, I also think it's like, sort of that Kate thing again, you're like, okay, as an audience member, this is the mission, okay, I'm on board. And then she completes the mission. She averts this disaster and it's not over. Like, after that mission, like, what's happening? So, yeah, I thought it was a good moment, again to show that Ruby can solve problems on her own without the doctor and use her own ingenuity. But then as an audience member, you're like, okay, but now what's going on? Because we still, like, we have another 40 year time jump and this episode is still not resolved. So I don't know, I just take it as, like he took an opportunity to show RWbY can solve problems and make some comments on things that are going on, but I don't know what else or deeper meanings it might have.

Well, and again, the source of horror here is, like, really real. You know, it's the threat of insane politicians. And that was another resonance with the dead zone reason why the president in the movie and Roger ap Gwillim here, the reason they're doing what they're doing is just because they're insane. They're just insane, evil men who crave power. But, you know, this isn't the first time Russell has taken a stab at. Sorry, I keep calling him Russell, as if he's my drinking buddy. But it's not the first time that Russell T. Davies has used the prime minister of Great Britain, as, you know, very overt commentary on politics of the day. He did it with aliens of London, World War III. He did it obviously, with the master and the last of the Time Lords. But in those other two examples, the prime minister was insane because there were, like, alien shenanigans involved. But this time it was just a garden variety, you know, regular old human sociopath megalomaniac. And I thought that that was kind of chilling in a way that the other examples weren't necessarily. And I thought that that speaks to the moment that we're living in.

That is sort of the frustrating thing, though, is that, like, there's the implication that he's maybe mad Jack or some semi magical thing involved with the circle, but he still exists either way, so that's unresolved too. Weirdly, like, the most human evil government person, other than, I guess, Harriet Jones, MP, flight Del north, um, would be, like, in the Chibnall era, the, like, defense lady who, like, bought the daleks, like, strangely enough, that's the most human of the, like, crap government Doctor who villains. I feel like so far, I'm sure I'm missing one people at home. Just let me know in the comments. Yell at me. Let Josh have it. It's Osh. No, hold on. You know, just. I I wish it was like Russell saying, like, no, this is a bad person. Humans can be bad, too. But even in this one, he's still like, maybe it's a magic guy. Don't worry about it.

I was just thinking about in the pub when they were joking around with Ruby and pretending like, you know, the fairy magic is real, and they're like, you really. You broke it. Oh, no. And they. They also started talking about blood and the history in Wales of torture and. And just a culture of blood and what was my thought, I guess tying that into Mad Jack. You know? I guess that's another circle. You know, this episode is full of circles. The ruby's time circle, the fairy circle. And this is, you know, a cycle of blood. And breaking the fairy circle, I guess, is metaphorically perpetuating, you know, the cycle of blood and violence and the personification of bad Jack.

Oh, that's an interesting point. So you're saying that, like, he's Welsh, so it's, like, perpetuating this cycle of blood. By the way, I'm not super up on my intra uk politics, but I did read some people being like, so wait, he's Welsh, but he's, like, a super british nationalist? Like, that would never happen. And I'm like, okay, if you say so. I mean, it didn't.

I mean, down to that. Like, Pakistan would literally never sell their nuclear weapons. That's the least believable thing in a. In an episode with a time traveling alien with a magic box. Like, still, within the context of doctor who Pakistan being like, yeah, sure, we don't need these. Is. That's buck wild. Like, yeah, just politically, it's not gonna happen. Jokes on me, like, tomorrow in the news, Pakistan's like, we're just taking these apart. Don't worry about. We don't need them. This is fine. We're gonna turn them into little DeLorean power plants. It's like in back to the future. It's gonna be great.

I guess the whole mad Jack thing, you know, she solves that problem, but then she's out of her loop at the end. So does the Mad Jack thing just. Is that a thread for the future Doctor who episode or something? Because, like, she technically didn't live that loop anymore at the end of the episode. So it's sort of like, he's still a threat or, you know, that may never come up again, and it was just part of this circle. I also wanted to say that that pub in the end reminded me of the beginning of american werewolf in London. I don't know if anyone else has seen that movie, but that's what I was getting the vibe for this horror episode. So, anyway. But I don't really know what the Mad Jack loop is, because now it's open again at the end of the episode.

Yeah, I'm not sure. I feel like it could go either way. You could say, like, she solved it in that closed off timeline. I mean, or it's not a closed off timeline. Like, what she did or does happens and she solved it, and then now, I mean, again, very similar to turn left, like, what Donna does in sacrificing herself, it fixes the world, and she doesn't know that she even did it. I think the implication for me was that that's what happens here, because I don't necessarily know what the point is of going through it, showing her, resolving it, and then just reopening it again. I mean, I just don't see the point of that. I mean, obviously, I could be proven wrong, but I don't know.

But if she did that in a closed loop. And what did close the loop, though? Because fixing the mad Jack problem wasn't, like, instantly, okay, you're done, and you're back where you started. She still lived out her entire life. It wasn't until she died. And what exactly did happen?

Right, but that's what you're saying. Hopefully, we get some resolution on that by learning something about Ruby's nature where it will retroactively become more clear how she was able to take part in that time loop.

Is it a loop because, like, the same way that she can make it snow, it's not that it's a loop in time. It's that she's bringing something from her past to the present.

So she could also bring something from the future to the past, then.

But that would require loop for her to even know that she needs to get her older self. Maybe her older self is bringing herself to her younger.

It's timey wimey and magical. I don't know that there are hard and fast rules, necessarily, but, like, as you say, maybe we'll learn something about Ruby that will make it make more sense.

Well, and again, rules. I mean, what you believe in is what you believe in is what happens, so.

Right. And as Kate said, like, you make up the rules and make it make sense. I mean, that's literally in the text of the show. Is saying, like, you figure it out, so we might just have to live with that. One last thing I wanted to mention. I just thought it was kind of interesting. The old age makeup, or lack thereof. I thought it was really an interesting choice. Like, I get the impulse to not want to cover somebody's face in latex to age them up. I thought it was admirable that they tried to do it with subtle makeup and with wigs and the Clark Kent thing with the glasses and be like, oh, yeah, no, you're 20 years older now, and obviously you look completely different, you know? Then they made the interesting choice of casting an actual old woman to play the 80 year old Ruby. And I was thinking about it, and, like, if the 80 year old Ruby was really Millie Gibson in old age makeup, which the show has done before, they did that with Clara going back to last week.

They did it back in Megloss. Right.

They did it back in Meglas. They did it back in Megalaz. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I think it would have made that revelation that it was Ruby the whole time a little stronger because it would have literally been the same actor and not some other actor that we've never seen before. And we just have to go with the fact that that is also Ruby.

I mean, the lady playing old Ruby knocked it out of the park, so I don't really have a complaint there. I thought she was great.

Yeah. I hate old age makeup.

Yeah.

Okay.

Personally, anything's better than that. And they did it right, like, CG, Peggy Carter, and Winter Soldier, where her, like, mouth is moving independently from the rest of her body. Like, let's just. No, just hire a human being. Like, again, back to the stripped down nature of this episode. Like, I'm really glad they didn't, like, give her a whole cg face, you know, and instead just, like, had a person do it.

Yeah, I didn't bump into it. I was like, okay. I mean, because it was such a big gap that last time jump anyway, that I was like, okay. And, you know, as. As we've seen through the course of doctor who and other properties, the. The old age of makeup doesn't always work. And maybe they tried it, and they were like, I don't know, this. This doesn't work, or we don't want to do. You know, there's lots of reasons why, but I didn't bump into it.

Do you know when they did it really well was in the girl who waited with the. The older Amy Pond.

Yes.

I thought it was really effective. In that.

Yeah, I didn't mind that one.

Well, yeah, I mean, your guys point is taken, like, at some point in the production, like, you have to decide if you're gonna go this route or you're gonna go that route. And I totally get why a producer or, you know, Russell himself would be like, yeah, I'm not fucking around with old age makeup. Like, we're not doing that shit canonically. I get it.

Doctor who moisturizers just got really good in the 2030s. She was really moisturizing. She was really hydrating. And then they got really bad again in the 2050s.

Yeah.

And it just kind of fell apart.

Right. So any closing thoughts or anything you guys came in wanting to talk about that we haven't covered yet?

I don't know if magic is staying around past this season, but I'm in for the Doctor fighting real werewolves and vampires coming up, instead of every monster being an alien or some piece of technology. So I'm interested in seeing Doctor actually deal with magic. I don't know if anyone else is, but I'm game for it.

Very. Yes.

He's come close a few times. What's full circle? Is that the episode where we learned about the vampire war between the vampires and the Time Lords? I mean, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, the hem of wars and Curse of Fenrik. I mean, a lot of those late 7th Doctor things, you got, like, the gods of ragnarok show up, some real. Some real rad magic shit starts popping in and then just randomly in battlefield, they're like, oh, by the way, the Doctor's Merlin. Don't even worry about it. Like, it's. He's Merlin. It's fine. It's a totally normal thing to just drop into an episode halfway through. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So I'm really hoping magic is sticking around, like, in my heart of hearts. Like, the doctor's name, the baby's name is Merlin. This fucking guy is fucking Merlin. Like that, you know? But that would also be maybe a hard sell for the general audience. I understand.

Well, what is magic aside from technology we don't understand yet?

Very good point. In tooth and claw, were those really werewolves?

Didn't they have some kind of, like, canine loop of form? Google Gobble. David Tennant really got to use some multi hyphenate polysyllabic.

It was an alien of some type.

Like, it was a were thing, but it was an alien.

Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

I have to be honest, I have seen most episodes of Doctor who more than once. Tooth and Claw I saw the first time and I've never had the urge to revisit. So I'm a little hazy on the details.

It's a sentimental favorite for me because that's. I got to tour BBC whales once as a wee lad and they were doing the sound mixing on that episode.

Really?

Yeah. It was very cool right before season two started. Yeah. The trick is to just have a mom who is really aggressive about emailing people. We got, like, a personal tour of BBC whales. It was rad.

It's a good time. Wow. Yeah. Okay, well, we'll have to hear more about that at some point in the future.

No. Yes.

Well, next week, it looks like our virtual social bubbles are about to be popped by a giant slug centipede thing in dot and bubble. We are halfway through this season, so, I mean, we have next week and then we have rogues the following week with Jonathan Goff, which is the one other episode this season not written by Russell T. Davies. And then we're into the two part finale. That's crazy. The two episode premiere and the shortened season. It's like. It's a fast moving train. I want to thank my guests James, Michael and Kelly, who may be semper, silenced physically, but never in spirit. And until then, we are Tardis rubbish on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. And please always remember to run fast, love hard, and be kind. So, Kelly, who is your favorite Doctor? No wrong answers and no judgment.

I've been dreading this question.

It's a mean question.

So my first Doctor was Christopher Eccleston. So I always have a soft spot in my heart for him. I wish we had more time with him. But for my favorite, I have to choose between David Tennant and Matt Smith. And that's a really hard choice. But I've been thinking about it a lot and I think Matt Smith has to edge it out a little bit.

That's a good choice. I love me as a Matt Smith.

Good pick. That's the great thing about the doctors. They're all good picks.

They're all good.

Yeah.

And, you know, when I said Matt Smith, I actually meant David Tennant.

Whoa.

A good choice. I don't know why. I don't know why Matt Smith came out of my mouth, but yes, David Tennant. Oh, okay. David Tennant is the one that edges again. But it's hard to choose between them. It's very hard.

I mean, I think it is definitive. He's the most popular doctor right of all time. Is that true? By several metrics.

I think he's definitely the most doctors of all time.

Yes.

I just think he has, he's so dynamic, and so is Matt Smith. But David Tennant just. He can do that. That rage and the smart thing and the cocky thing and the, you know, compassionate thing, which are all things Matt Smith can do. I don't. It's hard. Again, it's hard.

According to the Guardian, David Tennant is.

The best, our most reliable news source.

Well, that's what came up first in my Google search.

Shuddy is going to be up there, too, I think, because he just gives that same energy as Matt and David.

Michael, I know you also approached this question with some consternation, but who's your favorite doctor, Michael?

Isn't it the impossible ask? No, mine's definitely Peter Capaldi. I love a depressed guy in Ray Bans. Yeah, he's a real dream boat. Love the outfits. Yeah. Peter Capelli is definitely my doctor. I also do, though I want to, as a doctor who fan who regularly gives big finish productions a lot of shit, I have to say that David Warner, unbound Doctor is tremendous. The unbound audios and also the Bernie Summerfield box sets they did before Warner's passing, those were like a regular listen. For me. I think he was a great alternate casting.