S3E3 - AN ABSOLUTE JOY: Series 2 Post-Mortem with JOHN HIGGS

Welcome to TARDIS Rubbish. I'm Josh and we have had some time now to digest Season 2, 1541 of Doctor who, and surprisingly, the entire Ncutigatwa tenure as the Doctor. We're gonna do a bit of a postmortem on that with returning guest, who I'm thrilled to have. He is the author of the recent Exterminate Regenerate, the Story of Doctor who, among other volumes, and returned from a whirlwind press tour, Mr. John Higgs. Welcome back, John.

Hi, Josh. Good to be back.

So obviously I wanted to have you on again because I love chatting with you, but right after Lux, as the credits rolled, I had one thought. I was like, I wonder what John thinks about this.

Yeah, it was, it was the way Mrs. Flood was teasing that, you know, the series might be coming to an end. You know, limited run only and all that sort of stuff. The narrative outside the program, the conversation around it, and the content of the program. Sleep. The boundary had just fallen apart. The boundary between fiction and non fiction was so blurred. It's as it should be when the character's a trickster, you know, the Doctor who for me is always a trickster, even when he wears the mask of a hero and he's a boundary dweller and he crosses the boundaries of time and space. But the metaphysical sort of switching was more the sense that the cliffhanger had escaped from the program. The notion that, you know, how's the Doctor going to survive? This one is Doctor who doomed. You know, Doctor who's not doomed. He always survived. But how, how could he possibly survive? Had become, instead of the end of an episode had become the conversation around the whole thing. And the amount of characters, not human characters, but like Time Lords or gods, like Maestro or The doctor or Mrs. Flood, who would then just look at the camera and who knew they were in a TV program, you know, and who would then start playing the theme music or like the Doctor would sort of wink at the camera and do a song and dance routine. And the sense that this fiction, absolutely knew it was a fiction, was just, just wild. I mean, this whole era has been.

So, so wild, Josh, completely, in so many ways. The thing about Lux that really kind of floored me is lots of shows, especially recently, have started to play with self awareness of their own, you know, fictionality to different degrees. In fact, it's funny. I don't know if you follow Star Trek at all, but strange new worlds. They also have an episode in their upcoming season about the fiction of the program itself.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

I don't know if there's something in the Zeitgeist or if it's.

I think a large part of it to do is when a fiction becomes so big that it was part of the outside world, it's almost weird that it does not aware that it's a fiction in the world. It can be a cul de sac going down that route. It's shocking when it first happens. I'm thinking of that Grant Morrison Animal man cartoon. If you know that particular one. You know, it's like that was a sort of mind blowing. The question is, if you make them aware, why? What's your purpose? Where are you sort of taking it? And I do think there are narratively really interesting things you can sort of pursue if you go down that route. But, you know, maybe the whole rug's just been pulled from underneath it and it's. Whether it can continue down that road at the moment, I don't know.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the interesting thing. What you brought up a minute ago and what some struck you when Lux premiered was that this show was teasing its own cancellation.

Yeah.

Even though that must have been written in probably 2023 or at the latest.

Because they shot the finale for this season in April of 2024.

Yeah. I'd recall set spoiler homes taking pictures at that cinema very early on. And I recall it because Mrs. Flood was there in 1950s and it was like, oh, wow, what's going on there? Something happened there. So all that was always the plan. You know, it's not one of these last minute reshoot things.

Right. Which actually we can get to the last minute reshoots in a moment. But what surprised me, especially given the massive implications of this episode. And again, it was the second episode. So it was sort of setting this idea right from the outset that we are playing with the fictionality of the program itself. What surprised me was how far they went in that episode. Because, you know, there are things like the winking at the camera that's been happening, particularly with Mrs. Flood, you know, Maestro humming the theme tune. Things like that where very different from.

Them coming out of the tv.

Exactly right. And not only that, but the Doctor referring to an episode by name that is a fan favorite.

Yeah.

I thought the implications of that were so profound that the show would have to change moving forward that, you know, the Doctor is aware of his own status as either fiction or someone who can transcend the boundary of the land of fiction, if you will. But then the following week, the program Went on as usual.

Yeah, I get. I guess, I mean, I. The way I thought it was probably going was this universe, the one with you and me and Doctor who on the tv, is for the character of the Doctor the most impossible place for him to exist because no one would believe it. It's like in Miracle on 34th street when no one believes that Santa is Santa. I thought they were going into. If they were to bring him in to this unit. Like if an episode. You end on a big cliffhanger and you got all how they're getting out of this and the next episode starts with the cliffhanger and pulls back and someone's watching it on the TV or. Doctor who is a fiction.

Right.

If the Captain was in this, what he'd be stuffed. No one would believe a word of it. You know, that's an interesting sort of avenue it could have been going down. Doesn't look like they're doing that. I think they're just more that the whole R2D era is just such an explosion of playfulness, an explosion of endless sort of ideas and without concern for consequences. It's just. It's energy and it's, it's the pacing of it and it's after the toy maker. It's just this joyful sort of fun imagining of. Of what you can do with it and just trying everything and doing everything. Kid hyped up on sugar just with their Christmas toys, just going wild with it, you know, and that's quite a way to take it. Which is quite an aesthetic to give to an era.

You know, as we were saying the last time we spoke, there's almost an imperative for who to be the craziest program on television because that's a way to stand out among this sea of content. Doctor who has the potential to be more or less whatever kind of program it wants. This sort of maximalist version of it, I think has its virtues and makes a sort of sense.

Yeah, it's. It's very much for me, it feels that they are very intent on going for that Generation A, you know, that eight year old audience. Again, the Jodie Whittaker era felt very Generation Z to me. And they were. It's about friendship and, you know, those sort of emotions and things like this. But the kids who are just growing up online, it's a very different world. And you know, Doctor who isn't really compete with Andor is trying to compete with Gibbidi toilet.

Right.

That's their culture. You know, they're all just all this Italian brain rot that they're all mad for. Just. It's just this Dardesque sort of slightly cynical, but insane, knowingly insane sort of madness that is their culture. And it seems a good fit for that. I think I can see why it is as maximal as it is in those terms.

Yeah. You know, I think you might be onto something as well. In a time when the technology exists to create a fine enough facsimile of fiction or entertainment through the use of generative AI or whatever, how do you make the genuine article more desirable or more appealing? And I think the more idiosyncratic, the more, you know, insane, for lack of a better term, but sort of human insane, not incomprehensible human insanity that has, like, an emotional through line somehow. I mean, not just throwing nonsense up for the sake of something crazy. It's like, here's something.

It's clearly one man's vision that's not being filtered through a committee of people sort of rounding off the soft edges. I mean, if you pair it to, say, a big finish where they're trying to recreate a specific era, they're going like, this is set in the 1984 season. And so we're absolutely trying to recreate that. And it's exactly what sort of came before. That's the sort of thing that generative AI can sort of achieve. But to stride forward with a completely different personalized vision and the budget and the bloody mindedness and the sort of vision to sort of see it through is exactly what it should be doing. You know, it has to be what it wasn't. Has to be something beyond what it's been, for sure.

And it's interesting, too. It has to do with his love of television as a medium and pop culture in general. But it strikes me that the TV he writes, is very of the moment for the moment of transmission.

Okay. Yeah.

So in other words, he's not really interested in making something to stand the test of time for years from now. He's really trying to speak to the moment that the show is being made in and when it's being broadcast. And look at his approach to Dr. Who, for example, going back to 2005. The bad wolf episode. Yeah, Even the End of the World, they play the Britney Spears song.

Yeah.

And then Bad Wolf. You have all of the reality programs that were popular then lasting until the 51st century. It's like that joke. Those conceits only really are the most effective in that moment. And Russell is smart enough to know that.

Yeah.

And I do Think he has some understanding of how TV interacts with us sort of separately from, say, a film or from a novel or something. I think he's aware that it's most suited for that sort of immediate consumption in the context of whatever is going on.

I think he's very aware this is an era of the far right and of Trump, and he's planting his flag in that we are not that territory in a way that not many other programs have been brave enough to do. Be quite so out there in support of, you know, diversity and acceptance and all those sort of things at a time when that's politically, you know, dangerous, which is exactly what Dr. Would have done, you know, so it feels right. Absolutely right, yeah.

So that said, the reveal of who Mrs. Flood actually was, I was expecting her real identity to have something more to do with the fictionality of the program, like some sort of a God or a trickster in her own right, or.

A figure that preceded the return of the gods of Ragnarok, which I see very much as the gods that dictate the audience for Doctor who, and hence the ones that can bring about its final destruction. It felt like it was going in that direction. To me, the Rani was probably. Why? I don't know. I've never been a massive fan of the Ronnie. I don't really feel it's a character that makes a huge amount of sense. She's this amoral scientist, but she's Kate o'.

Mara.

Right.

So weird. Sort of, you know, sure. In the 80s, why not? But it didn't feel like a strong enough character to bring back or build up to, and to quite that degree, for me.

No, I would agree. What is interesting, though, is when I think of the Rani and I think of that particular moment in the program in the mid to late 80s and the Colin Baker of it all, and I do think of a very kind of maximalist. The excess of the 1980s and the excess of the program at the time. That's what the Ronnie makes me think of. And in a certain way, you could see some parallels, though hopefully not too many, because we know what that era of the show led to, which maybe isn't so dissimilar from where it's heading right now, unfortunately.

Time will tell, Josh.

Time will tell. I do feel like Russell T. Davis is making some attempt to reclaim certain aspects of that period of Dr. Who, you know, the return of Mel.

Mel, yeah, her sudden perm that appeared two thirds of the way through the last episode.

So about that. Apparently, what happened was they had finished shooting the whole season and then in January, Shutigawa decided that he wasn't going to return for a third year because they couldn't offer him a contract.

Yeah.

There was no renewal, so he was sort of in limbo where he is the Doctor, but there's no show, so he can't really accept certain kinds of jobs and he needs to leave his schedule open if he. So he was sort of in an untenable situation and he was like, I just have to leave. So it wasn't originally supposed to be his regeneration episode.

Yes.

So the last, like, 15 minutes or so was rewritten, then shot. The perm, I think it is, literally, because there's about nine months in between the first half of the episode and the second half of the episode. And, you know, I thought it actually worked surprisingly well. I thought it held together for the most part. The one thing I was expecting that I didn't get was some kind of. Not even resolution, but some kind of hint at what the Susan of it all was about.

Thought what you would say that. Yeah, absolutely. That does seem to have been lost in. In the rejig. It does. I mean, on first watch, all that stuff with the bone monsters attacking Unit Tower while he's flying around on this, but was so exciting. It was so crazy and so wild. And the notion that Unit Tower had, like a ship steering wheel in the thing, it's quite, quite insane. I'm first watch. The overwhelming energy of it all, you know, swept me away.

Yeah.

Then the realization that, oh, shoot, he has gone, has sort of left a bit of a, you know, a fog around it. Sort of, oh, it's too soon. That level of, no, this isn't right. It's a shame. I sort of colored it quite a bit. But when you do go back and rewatch that episode, I think it does hold back remarkably well, I still find, you know, I mean, there's many, many things going on in this era, but one of them is this obsession with babies and the Doctor not being able to have a baby and starting with space babies. And it just felt that, you know, surely this should have been Ruby Sunday's story because, you know, when Poppy sees her first time, are you my mummy and daddy? It seemed to be all sort of set up. You know, she worshiped her foster mother for what she did for other. You know, it did feel that that wasn't Belinda's story, that was Ruby's story. So on some level, it feels that there's been a, you know, a bit of Bodging the whole sort of thing together. But if you accept it for what it is, yeah, it's all right. I mean, it's a disappointment for the character of Belinda, who I absolutely loved from Robot Revolution on. And then she just sort of got a bit pushed to one side, which was a little bit disappointing. I think I preferred the second season to the first because I like Belinda so much. You know, no offense to her, Ruby. And, you know, Millie's an excellent actor, but there's something about her character that worked best without the doctor making 73 yards, or when she was just doing herself when she was with the Doctor, she's just a bit sort of. I'm a Doctor who companion. They fitted together so perfectly. So immediately they didn't have that sort of clash that Belinda and the Doctor did or Donna and the Doctor did. You know, that was like a little bit of a clash going on. So, yeah, it's easy to look at it and go, well, it should have been this, it should have been that, it should have been the other. We all do that because Doctor who makes us think like writers and we're always coming up with our version in our heads. And then when we see that, you know, it's not actually our version on the tv, it's Russell T. Davies's version part. Wrong. Surely that's wrong. Surely the version in my head is the right one. I'll actually get past that and look at what he actually achieved. Yeah, I think it's been quite a remarkable era. I think has the feel of season 26 for me, in that it's been so overshadowed by the ratings and the implication for the future. Bro. From the ratings, that's been the conversation not, my God, what an amazing run of stories those were. And in time, I think we'll look back at it and go, you know, what an amazing run of stories those were. Because there was some wonderful ones this season. It was superb. As the season was going out, I was out touring the uk, promoting my book, doing talks and doing events and things like that. And beforehand, when I first announced that I was going to write a book about Doctor who, I think I was telling you this earlier. The amount of people who went, oh, you're brave, was really striking. And it was fans and non fans alike. That was the perception of, you know, Doctor who fans were like, they're difficult. Right. And so I go do these talks as the programs on. And I find the complete opposite. And there's a bit where I talk about how negative the story around the program was at the same time, when these episodes are just, you know, I'm really enjoying them and I just see all these nodding heads, just these people just nodding at the same time, talking to them afterwards. There was such a love for this series and this series as it was happening that just not reflected online in any way, shape or form. And I think I finally realized I always viewed the online world as kind of like a reflection of reality, like maybe a dark reflection or twisted mirror, but it was connected. Don't think it is anymore. I think it's just something completely different. Completely different. I think that it's so optimized for extremes that the bulk of reality is just not there. It's just irrelevant. And the online, you know, chatter about these things, it's just irrelevant. It's not what Doctor who is. It's just its own thing. And some people like that. They get off on that negative thing and they're still in there. But once you've seen it like that, you just go, I'm walking away, mate. This isn't. This is doing me no good at all, you know, and once you step away from it, it just looks ridiculous. It looks ridiculous.

No, I agree with you completely. Somewhere along the line, I realized that the best way to enjoy the show was sort of taking it on its own terms as it was happening. So, in other words, now, to some ears, I'm sure this will sound like a bit of a cop out, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter who Mrs. Flood is. It doesn't really matter who Ruby's mother is. The point of the show is watching week to week and, you know, enjoying the mystery.

Yeah.

And being swept up in it and being surprised and all those things that online spoilers really undercut, ruin.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Thank you.

Know, the Interstellar song contest, the episode, lot, lot going on in there. I had a particularly long Saturday, really. And the only thing I wanted to do was come home and sit down and have a pizza and watch the new episode of Doctor who. So I did that.

Yeah.

First of all, knowing it was the Interstellar Song contest, having seen the preview, I thought that, you know, we were in for a frothy sort of a romp. And then not 15 minutes in the episode, there's that striking image of the entire population of the asteroid or whatever was floating out into space and freezing to death.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is. Yeah. Incredibly dark and depressing, but, you know, and obviously it all turns out fine in the end.

Yeah.

But then I Was not expecting to find out who Mrs. Flood was at the very end. And I was not expecting for the reveal that it was the Ronnie. And my job was sort of on the floor. I was like, how much more can you think throw at the screen? It's like the Ronnie's back. And if you've been following Doctor who fandom, even at all, from afar over the last, you know.

Yeah.

20 years or so, the gag was always the Ronnie's coming back. So there was also, in some sort of fandom meta way. It's like, yep, it really is the Ronnie's back. This time we're doing it. I thought that was quite funny.

Do you think she came back because of that and not because of the character as written in the 80s, I.

Was also watching not Doctor who Confidential, but the new iteration of it. Yeah.

Unleashed.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. But Russell said Shudi requested that he face the Ronnie.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that rings a bell. Yes.

Which I thought. I don't know. That helped me understand how all of the facets of the season came together, because he probably had Mrs. Flood.

Yeah.

He had Susan sort of swirling around, and then, you know, when the star says, hey, Russell, you know what I would love?

Yeah.

Then he goes, okay, I think I can make that work.

Do you reckon?

Shoot.

He was kicking himself that he didn't say the Daleks.

I don't know. Well, so supposedly the next story was supposed to be Susan and the Doctor facing the Daleks.

Oh, wow.

Was that what I said? Christmas special or something? I haven't heard that.

So, I mean, first of all, I know it exists somewhere, but I would love to see the original final minutes of the finale. But supposedly she shows up at the very end.

Yes.

And says something to the Doctor about the Daleks.

Oh, okay.

In the 80s, it would have been like, you know, the snap zoom on the Doctor's face.

Yes.

And then maybe you cut the credits. So the implication was Susan and the Doctor are about to face off with the Daleks again.

Very fitting for Susan.

I really wonder what Russell had in mind for Susan, and especially now, how it will work if and when the show continues with a new Doctor, possibly played by Billy Pop. Billy Piper.

It's fascinating, isn't it?

It is fascinating.

Might just be for legal reasons, they can't offer a thing when they don't have a commission. And, you know, her agent would be in a very good position at this point to get a really amazing deal because they put her up there.

The choice of revealing her to be the Doctor or At least in the Doctor. Shaped hole where the Doctor usually appears.

Yeah.

Is actually perfect because she checks all of the boxes. So you imagine they're in a position where at the 11th hour, they lose their Doctor.

Yeah.

And now it's a regeneration story and they don't know if the program is returning or not.

Yeah.

So do you cut to black, not show who the new Doctor is? That's kind of unsatisfying.

Absolutely. That feels like the end of the series, doesn't it?

Exactly. That feels like the end of the series. So you want to avoid that.

Want it to be an ongoing thing.

Exactly. Yet at the same time, you can't cast somebody new as the Doctor because you don't have a contract for them to sign.

Yeah.

And a commitment for them.

Yeah.

So Billy Piper is actually pretty brilliant because she and Russell obviously have a relationship.

Yes.

She has a connection and love for him and for the program.

Yeah.

She's enough of a star that she doesn't need the job, so she can sort of hang out while they figure out if there's a show or not.

Yeah.

And also it's a huge WTF moment at the end where it's like, I have to see where this goes.

Yeah.

Because it could. I mean, there's the get out that. It's the moments, it's the Bad Wolf moments. So there's a get out. But I do think she, Billy Piper, is kind of almost exactly where logically the next Doctor would go. Because we've had two men, so a female one seems likely and probably more not together than Jodi, more someone who's like, on top of it, Someone who's taking charge, someone who's sorting it out, Someone who's proactive almost in a late McCoy sort of way. Someone who knows what's going on and is dealing with it and is on top of it and is a real sort of force, you know, taking care of business sort of character to me, that feels like where it would logically go now. And she'd be a perfect cast of that.

She would be. When I first saw it, I was stunned. Now, normally, when the Doctor regenerates and you see the debut of a new Doctor, you know it's coming and you know who you're about to see.

Yeah.

So, number one, the fact that I had never had the experience of watching a regeneration story not knowing I was watching a regeneration story.

Yeah.

So that was a new experience.

Not easy to earth the prize. Regeneration.

No.

My God, no.

In fact, it seems like the only way to do it is to change your mind right at the last minute.

Yeah.

So whether or not the show continues in its current iteration, production situation Network, or if it takes a rest for some period of time, either way, I think that closing moment is perfect.

Yeah.

Would also be a good start for a series of books as well, like the Virgin European, where you don't know where it's going, where it's creating its own sort of thing.

Love that.

I can imagine if that was happening in also the preschool version of Doctor who, which is being commissioned. Yes. That's happening at the same time. It would be quite a mad period that. That preschool version that they're talking about, you know, that's been commissioned. I'm sure you saw all that sort of stuff because I used to work in preschool animation. Right. Something I know really very well. Yeah. I start the book the Exterminate Regenerate, talking about how I'd hired Tom Baker to be a narrator of this. And so I obviously had a lot of thought because preschool is one of those things that people think is very, very easy, but it's incredibly hard to do well. Difference between a celebrity writing a children's book and like, you know, Julia Donaldson writing the Gruffalo or something like that. It's vast. And it's a lot to do with understanding how children at particular age range process the world outside them and how they see the world outside them. And that four to six year age that they're aiming at is point where children leave the house and go into school and encounter the larger world and teach a sort of like she's kind of a perfect sort of time to sort of encounter Doctor who, I think. So I was thinking about this preschool thing and talking to my daughter and she just goes, yeah, yeah. But when I was five, my Doctor who was Doctor who and I thought, oh, yeah, same here. When I was five, I was watching, you know, I feel that that is where. Where we should be, I think. Who and show the five year old traumatized life.

I also have a four and a half year old and I am always surprised by what she latches onto and what she could care less about. She is very interested in stuff that is like a little beyond what I would have assumed her comprehension is. And I think kids like that. I think they like watching something where there is a sense of there's more going on and they want to understand. So it sort of draws them in rather than something that sort of what you see is what you get.

Yeah, definitely. This is kind of why I was so unsure about space babies. Because back in the day, we did. It was an animated magazine program aimed at teenagers. This is back when we used to make TV programs for teenagers. We pretty much gave them up on that. It was set on a television station in space and we did a series of it and it didn't really rate, but it got nominated for a bafta. So the television company was in two minds about whether they should make any more, and hence did a focus group. And they got a load of teenagers in this focus group and they showed them an episode. And the episode they chose was one in which the space station had been invaded by these baby aliens.

Right.

And we thought, well, that was an all right episode. That was quite a funny one. I'm sure that's all right. And almost to a man, all the teenagers in the focus group were just going, oh, it's babyish, isn't it? Babies. Children have no interest in children younger than themselves. They want children older than themselves to sort of look up. So to start with a load of babies. I just had a bit of a sinking feeling when they did that treble arson to work so well, I thought.

I have read a lot of similar opinions about that, that, you know, that was a strange foot to start out with.

Yeah.

And I think for me, I really love that episode. I'm sure it's because I'm a relatively new father. So I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in a state of mind where that stuff works on me.

And also it's this continued obsession with babies, the whole thing. Like, Anita was pregnant in the last episode. It's just another little sort of detail that it took. And it's this whether Russell T. Davis almost unconsciously is dealing with the, you know, not being a father stage of life of a gay man at that sort of life, not being a father and making the Doctor a gay man who cannot have children and is dealing with not being a father. Whether that says more about Russell than anything else, I don't know. But it seems an odd for the madness of this particular era.

I think you're right. I'm sure at least some of it has to come from Russell himself. The other thing that I was thinking was, well, here's how we thematically bring in Susan.

Yes, absolutely.

She's his granddaughter. It's sort of like the original sin of Doctor who. It's like, how do you reconcile this?

He's abandoned. And to the extent that Russell was writing dialogue that contradicted, you know, the first Russell era, I think it was fear her. When Tenants Doctors telling Billy that I've been a father and a grandfather. And she's like, have you? And then suddenly he's like, oh, I've not been a father yet, or whatever. Shoot. He said. And it was, wow, that's going to take a lot of thought to retcon those things together. That's a problem for someone at a later date.

Yeah. So. But I mean, once again, it's like you're supposed to just. The show is sort of made to enjoy on its own terms in the moment. Right. So, I mean, it's just like another sort of example of. Well, it feels right for it to be like this. Now, there was a quote, I think it's from Terence Dixie. He said their approach to continuity when he was a script editor was whatever someone can be reasonably expected to remember from, like, a couple years before.

Yeah.

Which, you know, to someone who's used to how sci fi franchises operate now, it's like. It sounds ridiculous and funny, but I actually think it's kind of wise, the idea that the show lives in this sort of temporal singularity that reaches about a couple years on either side and is sort of moving along on a continuum. Especially in the era when you didn't have streaming on demand, even VCRs like that.

Yeah.

Seemed exactly right to me.

Yeah.

It's the James Bond theory of what you're watching. Yeah. That's real, but.

Right.

Everything else is vaguely remembered, though. He was a bit different then and things like that. But I think the sense that the universe has been changed after he sprinkled the salt in wild blue yonder. And so you don't expect everything to be as it was, something wild beyond. It was such an excellent episode, by the way.

I loved that episode. I mean, it was really atmospheric, it was well executed, it was impressive visually, you know, it was creepy. It was just really great. And the other thing too, that I loved about it was that it was like, stripped down, bare bones. Doctor who.

Yeah, absolutely.

The Doctor and the companion in an abandoned spaceship. You got a robot, you got a couple of monsters and a long corridor. The longest corridor we've probably ever seen in the show.

Yeah.

And it was so effective, you know, it didn't feel like you were watching something that was a throwback or something on the cheap.

It was not seen before yet. At the same time, it could easily been Pertwee and Joe Grant, or it could, you know, it was. Yeah, it was. There's been some real amazing episode luck that we were talking about. You know, I think when we come back to look at this era when we know what the future of the show is and those fears have sort of gone. I think it's gonna. I think it's gonna be well loved. I do wonder if Shooty will regret leaving so early, before he was kind.

Of done, you know, what was his final tally was like 18 episodes, something like that.

Yeah.

Christopher Eccleston had 13.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that felt like a complete story.

Yes.

This was a little truncated. There's a lot of things left over. There's Susan, there's the boss.

You know, given the ultimate revelation of who Mrs. Flood was, I don't have really any expectations for the identity of the boss.

No, someone knew because I feel like.

It could go either way. It's like either something that's like, oh, yes, of course. Or it's like, oh.

I mean, it's totally in keeping with the maximist approach. But the idea that this is season one, series one, this is the jumping off point for the world, you know, it's entirely new. You're welcome. Come on to it now. Oh, and by the way, Sutek, amiga male, you know, the Rani, it's quite insane. Beautiful way.

He'd already forgotten that Omega was in the finale. Like, that was also bonkers. Ronnie and Omega and Regeneration and Billy Piper. I was like, this is absolutely bonkers. That was a bonkers hour that I just watched.

It was. And the fact that Omega's last physical appearance was Peter Davison made me think, when Omega's, what they're going to look like with the mat. Would it be. That would have worked great.

That would have been brilliant, actually. I would have loved that.

Did love seeing Jodie in last episode.

That was also a total surprise. And what a wonderful little scene.

It was beautiful, wasn't it? She was. I think so many people realized how much they missed her now. It's always the way with Doctor who, you go five years, that era you just pine for, but at the time you're just complaining about it or moaning about it. So I think her era is coming up the same way Capaldi's did. You know, people were showing Capaldi at the time. But which quintessential. Good as it gets, pure Doctor who.

I'm with you 100%. Especially that middle season of his and even the last season that we did. I don't think it gets any better.

Than that TARDIS team of Pearl Mackey and Matt Lucas.

Yeah, that was hilarious.

It was great.

That was great.

Nardol was very funny and more of that would have been. And Missy as well in it and all that.

Yes. Oh, she was brilliant.

Yeah.

What a brilliant performance and characterization for that character.

Yeah.

Were there any standout episodes from the season or the last two seasons we haven't mentioned that you want to highlight?

I mean, it's been very high quality. I think the story in the Engine, I think, is quite extraordinary. It's gutting that it's the least watched episode of Doctor who.

That true?

Yeah, it's like. I mean, I think even episode one of battlefield got like 3.1 million, and that was the nadir. That was the lowest. That was the end of it. But I think it got 2.8 or something like that, and.

Oh, that's sad to hear that.

It's. It is. It is, but it is exactly what the program should have been doing. You know, it's. I mean, I think, you know, it's noticeable that when it went from David Tennant to Shooty Gatwa, the audience halved. Right. And there's a sense that people didn't really want a black Doctor who in terms of the mainstream, sort of. And when you got an episode with entirely black cast, set in Africa, with African stories, that is the lowest sort of thing. And that is sad. But at the same time, they were right to do it. That's exactly what Doctor who should be doing, you know, and those who miss out on it, you know.

Yeah. That episode really was tapping into the main line of that metatextual.

Yeah.

So once again, I was like, okay, now we're really getting into it.

Yeah.

And having that follow looks as well.

Right.

Seeing that we were definitely going in that direction.

Exactly. And I was also, you know, there was a lot of stuff about that episode that I'd never seen. Not only Doctor who do, but that I've never really seen on tv, you know, in general.

Absolutely.

And that is something. You know, when I sit down to watch an episode of Doctor who, I want to see something I've never seen before.

Yeah.

Combined with things that only that show can do because of the long history of the program as well. The trap is when it relies on nostalgia for nostalgia's sake.

Yes. I think that if it has now lost the audience, if there was a sense of hubris around Russell Davis return, it was asking for fall. There was just that air to it. But still, even if it was a failure, it was a very noble one. It was not timid. It was brave in the way that the Doctor is brave. I do think it should have been exactly what it was Very glad that it happened that era.

I agree with you. And I'm a little sad that we have sort of fallen into talking about it as if it's something that is done and finished.

Yeah.

And we're gonna look really stupid in two weeks when Disney announ that not only are they commissioned, they've got the entire HBO Max Cat back catalog.

I'm all for that happening if it means that the show is coming back. There is something, though, in what you said that I just realized the problem was going back to Russell in the first place.

Yeah.

I think possibly, you know, out of that nostalgia player. Not even nostalgia. It's like, hey, what worked for us before? Yeah, let's go back to that.

Yeah.

And I think in the confines of that, this is exactly what it should have been. The real thing, though, if you are going to reinvent the program for Generation A, for this new media landscape that we're existing in, you probably need someone brand new.

Yeah, absolutely. It needs someone brand new in the near future.

Which is not to say that I didn't love this era. And I don't think, you know, as you say, I think it's exactly, exactly how it should have been. I just think that the idea of, like, okay, well, let's try to reset the clock and capture some of that old magic.

Yeah. And to be fair, he didn't come back and repeat himself. He came back something new and fresh.

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I think the instinct to return to him was coming from there. I think Russell himself was. Okay, how should this work now?

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

John Higgs, thank you so much for returning and chatting about Doctor who and I never tire of chatting with you and I never tire of chatting about Dr. So this was time well spent for me, certainly. But what's next for you? I think you're working on a new project. Are you able to talk about it or. Not yet?

I've got all. The deadline is the end of the month for a booklet in November, which I'm deeply immersed in at the moment, that hasn't been announced yet, so I should probably save that for another time. I'm busy, Josh. I'm being busy.

Great. Okay, wonderful. If people do want to hear about it when you can talk about it, they should sign up for your [email protected].

Yeah, you can find it on johnhiggs.com I've got a substack and that's where I sort of named. Yeah, as you probably can tell from me talking about the online world earlier. I don't really engage with that much anymore, but I do a substack, so that works.

And then there's a reissue of your book about the klf.

Yeah, that's looking lovely. I've just got a palette. The paperback of the KLF book now has a 10th anniversary author's commentary, which was in a hardback edition that came out for the 10th anniversary, but that's all. That new stuff is in the paperback or will be from next week anyway.

Was that only in the UK or will it only be available today?

I'm afraid it came out in America not so long ago when there was the debate about would it be too weird for it to come out for the first time in print in America with a 10th anniversary author's commentary sort of picking it apart at the bottom and it was generally deemed to be. Oh, that'd be a bit too weird. The careless book is weird enough as it is the original version.

Okay, well I'll go to Amazon.co.uk and pick that up though, just but go to johnhiggs.com, sign up for his substack. I think I said last time I immediately open that whenever I see a new one in my inbox. Thank you, John. I hope we can reconvene at some point in the future to talk about new Doctor who.

I hope so too. It's always a pleasure, Josh. Very much enjoyed it.

Josh materializing from the vortex since recording with John, he announced through his substack that his next book is called Lynchian the Spell of David lynch and it will be out in November. It's available for pre order in all the usual spaces, and my excitement for this book rivals that of his Doctor who book Exterminate, Regenerate. Unfortunately, seeing as how this is not a David lynch podcast, it's a Doctor who podcast. I won't have a chance to talk to him about it unless there's an announcement in the offing about the future of this podcast on the way. So stay tuned and laugh hard, run fast, and be kind.