S2E1 - Baby's in Black and I'm Feeling Blue: SPACE BABIES & THE DEVIL'S CHORD

Hey, babes. Welcome back to Tardis rubbish as we spend the next six weeks discussing and reacting to Shurigatwa's first proper season as the 15th Doctor. I'm Josh, and joining me to discuss episode one, space Babies, and episode two, the Devil's cord is guy.

Hey, everybody.

I'm glad to be back and welcome Jon.

Hey, super glad to be back. And it's been. I feel like it's actually been like months and years, even though it was really not that long ago. But I needed my Doctor who fix indeed.

And making her Tardis rubbish debut, she is a frequent fixture on the secret origins of mint condition, an expert in all things sound and audio. Welcome, Adrian.

Hello.

So real quick, before we get into the episodes, we do a thing at Tardis rubbish, where whenever someone makes their first appearance, we ask them what their favorite who their favorite Doctor is for calibration purposes. So, Adrian, who is your Doctor?

I'm really bad with favorites of things because it depends on the mood I'm in. But I started with Matt Smith, so my old job was petering out, let's say. And we were only working every once in a while and I had a lot of time and everyone was saying, oh, you'd like Doctor who, and new Doctor was starting. So I thought, oh, seems like a good time to jump on. And I. I really enjoyed it, especially that first season. Like, that's. If I go back and rewatch episodes, I'll find myself going back to that first Matt Smith season more than some of the other ones. But, like, there's. I enjoy. I enjoy all the new. I haven't seen enough of the classic who to to know that much. I guess technically my first ever episode of Doctor who was a Cybermen episode with I don't remember who it was, but it was way back. And somebody from Mint had Lent Dad a vhs copy and we were watching it and I just remember being like, this is where they got the idea for the Borg, isn't it? Because literally, like, the lines were, like, almost exactly like the Borg. I was like, oh, my God. But, yeah, that was a long time ago. So, yeah, Matt Smith, I would say, was probably. That's my first doctor.

Matt Smith is a great doctor in that first season, season five of I guess, what are we calling that era? It's not classic who is this still new who? And this is like, new new who. I've seen that.

That's new who.

And this is renew who re knew who. I like that. I like that. Okay, renew who. Let's get into space babies. Let's start with our overall reactions. Guy, what was your overall. Overall thoughts on space babies?

Okay, so I should preface by saying, I really enjoyed it. It was a little jarring in. I was like, who's this for? It was like, it was like a doctor who meets Sarah Jane adventures. It was kind of. I don't want to say simple, but it was very. The premise was, I mean, when you have babies as main characters, I've never, ever actually ever seen something like that. Instead, unless, like, look who's talking, or the, like, any animated movie. So having babies, it was a little jarring. I just. There, I couldn't relate. I thought they were gosh darn adorable. And I'll get into what I think is going on and why I initially. I know this long story long, I enjoyed it. I thought the chemistry between Millie and Judy was excellent as a starting point.

Though.

For new people coming in, it made me question was this strongest thing to show new people to say, hey, come join this crazy, wacky adventure? I mean, it is certainly wacky.

But.

When you enclose it into the typical corridor, running down corridors, and you put it into basically a box, it was very. I felt very constrained in the setting, but I enjoyed it. But I was just questioning the thought process as to why this was the first episode, and I think that's why they did a double billing, because I think the second episode, the devil's Cord, was a stronger episode, and. But, yeah, yeah, I liked it, but I have my reservations.

Okay, John, your overall thoughts on Space Babies?

Space babies, I sort of feel the same way. I feel used to a cadence with Russell Davies years in Doctor who, and I felt this is a return to that cadence, which is that the first episode, and we were mentioning this, that, like, Disney made the choice to put the Christmas special as episode one. So actually, as you pointed out, like, a new viewer is gonna come in and be like, oh, okay, that's the first episode. You know, ruby Road, go right in with that. So for somebody new, this is not gonna be the first episode if they're on the Disney platform. If you view it as a second episode, it's very in line with Davey's typical, like, we're gonna go silly, we're gonna be a little bit goofy and then scary, sort of, and weird. And that's like, you know, I'm thinking back to season one with Christopher Eccleston, and it was the end of the earth, and that was where you had the last human being, the stretched out piece of skin that was just way too much plastic surgery over the many millennia. And that was a very silly episode in a whole bunch of ways. And then what am I thinking of, too, is when Donald comes in and you have the episode partners in crime, where it's about the adipose little fat creatures made of fat who are, you know, from the pills that people are taking. It was goofy and silly, and that's how they reunited was like, you're doing this thing too. So am I. This is so wacky. I think that's his cadence, is to go in second episode with a wacky after being a little more intense in the beginning, and then we go back to that in the third episode, which is more intense, a little bit more of the overarching story, a darker villain. So it's very familiar to me. It just felt like, yeah, this is Russell Davies. We're back with his vibe and his way of doing things. Overall, I liked the episode, I think. Yeah, it was sort of like typical Doctor who fair. A weird scenario, a big mystery, a scary monster, gross monster. As it turned out, the whole booger thing had me just, like, gagging towards the end. I'm like, no. Oh, God, no. Please don't. I don't know. I just could not handle that. Doctor who sometimes does go for the gross out factor of, like, in a childish way, which is where the show sort of is meant to be accessible, is that, you know, accessible to adults. A younger than ya audience for that. So I think this gave us that in a sense, like, right out the back, you know, right out the gate was, okay, this is something that's accessible. This is a fun episode. It's silly, it's goofy, but no. Was it the strongest doctor episode? Absolutely not. It was right in the middle of the pack for me, and probably not an episode that I would go back and rewatch in the future. That's what I've done. Well, for the third episode, the Devil's court, that's an episode where I needed to sink my teeth into it, and I plan on watching it again. So every episode has its own different thing, you know, every other show that I binge watched recently to get back in some of my Star Trek shows, whereas, oh, there are all these episodes that, like, sort of start off and they're just a very, like, easygoing, silly thing. And you don't necessarily remember them in the years later when you're thinking of that show or that genre. And I think this might fall into that, except for the fact that it was actually babies talking. But it was fun. It was silly, and it was, you know, it sort of had, like, a cool, you know, end moment of with the, you know, with nanny trying to save everybody but feeling guilty and all that stuff. It was classic doctor who. I, you know, definitely. Definitely felt like we were returning the form.

Adrian, your overall thoughts?

Space babies, kind of on par with the other guys. It was fun. Like, I enjoyed the tone, but I. Yeah, it didn't quite. I was like, okay, what's going on here? And. But. But, yeah, the tone and the pacing and stuff, that was all a lot of fun, and it was like a silly episode of Doctor who. Like, John just said, I am not a fan of gross out humor, so I had a hard time with that stuff, too, like you said. Yeah, yeah, that was not. I was like, okay, we can get beyond this part now. Let's. Let's, uh, let's figure things out. But I did, like, the whole thing with. With the nanny. Didn't want to. Didn't want them to see her. You know, they. I thought that was an interesting little, like, it was like, it was a dark little twist in the midst of this silliness that she didn't want them to see her die, and she didn't want to see them die, you know, so she kept herself removed so that they didn't have to see that and that. So it was like, in all the silliness, and then you had that one little, like, ooh, that's. That's messed up. I missed. I mean, I understood the whole thing about the. They created, you know, the babies needed the monster, but I think I missed whatever was said earlier that then made them make that connection later on. But, yeah, I mean, it was. It was fun, you know, for. For the most part. But, yeah, it was middle of the road, like you guys said.

I don't know, guys. I guess I'm the outlier here. I loved it. I thought it was great. Like, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I was recently a father of a small baby, and, you know, guy, you're right. Like, this is sort of bog standard doctor who in that it's a derelict space station. There's some sort of a tech problem to solve and, you know, hardly breaking new ground. But the babies, the talking babies, the space babies, was, like, so just mad and completely bonkers. And just the idea, the fact that they would do this from a production standpoint is just also absolutely insane. Like, you know, there's that rule they say, you never work with animals. And you never work with babies. And they're like, well, we have a cast of, like, a dozen live babies who are not just there for scenery or for, like, a cute moment. It's like they are carrying the story and have a lot of dialogue, like, just absolutely insane. And I think, you know, that's kind of, I can't help but feel like the ambition of that was kind of Davies being like, okay, so we've got, we've got Disney money now, and we can make this a little grander. So what can we do to kind of put a twist or sort of do a standard Doctor who story, but something that we could have never done before. And just as a random thing, I noticed, like, at the very end when the TARDIS materialized inside Millie's mom's kitchen and it broke through the ceiling, wrecked it in my head. I was like. And wrecked it in my head. That was something that, like, you would never do previously because the amount of money and time you would waste breaking the ceiling, you would never do that on a tv budget ever. And the fact that they did that for, like, a throwaway gag, I was like, they are spending this money. You know, like, they're like, okay, like, I know that we have a little more room here, so I'm going to indulge in it. You know, guy, you were saying, who's it for? I think it's for. It's for existing viewers to kind of show, you know, here's some very familiar Doctor who, but here's what we can do now. So it's, it's, it's sort of a. It's sort of a mission statement. It's like, yes, and we're going to do these, like, really mad things. And for a new viewer, I think it's functioning in a very similar way to an episode like the end of the world, like you mentioned, John, where it's sort of like, okay, we've had the introductions. Here's sort of the litmus test. Like, here's how crazy and wacky we can get. So if you're not on board with this, then the show's probably not for you. I loved Judy and Millie. You know, I keep hearing how brilliant Millie Gibson is, and I really felt that from these two episodes. I mean, there was nothing particularly flashy with the material that she was given in these episodes, but she just really inhabited that character and really, like, milked everything. And then, I mean, Judy's just wonderful and his enthusiasm is infectious. And I'm on board with this sort of like, new lease on life, that the doctor has this new attitude toward life. I thought he summed it up pretty well in, I think it was in this episode and not the devil's court, but. And then just two other things, I think. Adrian, you noted that the episode, even though it was kind of silly, it also has some moments of darkness. And that's. And that's very Davies like. There was that whole idea where the planet made it illegal to shut off the baby making machine, but once they're alive, they're leaving them stranded to die. And I was like, this is that furious? Russell T. Davies coming through. And it's also very interesting knowing that this would be showing on Disney for, like, a whole new audience. And similar with the next episode, the devil's cord. Like, they're not shying away from things out of fear of offending anybody.

I particularly enjoyed the commentary of we will not shut down the station because, you know, unborn life is more important until once they're born, they're on their own.

The other interesting thing about that is that I was reading some commentary online from someone who's in the UK, and they were like, it's really interesting to note that abortion is not the hot button culture war issue in the UK the same as it is in America. So that was him knowingly touching a third rail for Americans, knowing that he would be reaching a much larger audience because of the platform of Disney. So I think, you know, I mean, talk about a mission statement. I think that that was a very intentional move on his part.

It was Russell Davies at amongst his best, because a lot of his, especially his recent works, have been very politically oriented, think years and years. It was a way of, for a lot of people, go over their heads, but this was a way of saying, hey, I'm gonna say something without beating over the head with it. Which to me, it was very, in some ways, like, you know, classic Sci-Fi Star Trek where it's like, okay, those of us who can pick up on things instantly see what it is, others may not pick up on it. You can even see it through a filter and not get it at all, depending on how you look at it. But the message is still clear that money, budgets, all that other stuff means, oh, well, we care about life. We love life. Life has to happen. We just can't deal with it once it's here. So life is there. Good luck to you. And it was so. It felt like it really was from a perspective of somebody who didn't live in the US and wasn't part of that particular culture. We're here because it's almost. It leads incredulity to it. You're just like, why would they do that? You just have a bunch of babies up on the station. What do you expect to happen? And registering the protests of each of the station members that they each log their protests, that was a really important moment for me, because it showed that people aren't inherently bad, but they're up against a force that they can't necessarily combat directly. You know, as they register their protests, they say, I'm doing this under duress, et cetera, but they feel powerless in this. And that's sort of how I think a lot of us feel in general right now. And to see that, again, it was subtle. It was in a way that you would just sort of absorb it and see it in a moment without it being like, all right, let's say it. Obviously, let's just put it in front of you, and then we can discuss, like, it's a class. No, it was just there to look at and say, yeah, this is doctor who making a commentary on that and saying that, yeah, everyday people are part of the well, suffer under the same problem and don't know what to do about it. And then you have the doctor come in. Can the doctor save you? Well, at the end of the day, the hero was natty. You know, that was. That was the real hero, because she had been there the entire time trying to save these days. I love that she was the accountant. Not a nanny by training, not a technician, not anything else, was the accountant. And there you go. That goes back to the whole thing. Like, this is a corporate thing. It was budgets, it was money. And the only person who stayed behind was the accountant and did everything in her power to save these space babies.

I love that you're doing what Judy did, the doctor did. He kept correcting himself. It's not babies, it's space baby. It's. That was a really great moment and moments where he kept correcting himself, and.

It added so much to that, to those. To the space babies, where you would pay more attention and be like, oh, yeah, they're space babies. And then his enthusiasm, which was, again, infectious, and I'm gonna say that a ton of times, is that infectious enthusiasm he had for everything thing happening. And you felt that. So even if you were skeptical about, like, space babies, it was space babies. So it sort of changed the vibe of it as the episode went on, because you saw his enthusiasm, that self correction, and the doctor being, like, good with babies. I was looking back and I said, yeah, that sort of was like a weird space Mary Poppins, doctor who, you know, combination. Whether it completely works, I'm sort of in the middle there. But it was very cool and I thought it gave a little bit of a breather going into the next episode, because if every episode is going to be really intense, where everything is building upon something else and is intense, and you're just going to be surprised and shocked at everything. This is part of the journey. And that's why the very tagline of this new show, your cosmic joyride, awaits your cosmic joyride. That is very deliberate. That is so deliberate and great, because it says, yeah, we're going on an adventure. We're going on it together. Come on, get ready. Like, join us on this. And that's where this episode started off. It's crazy, but you're like, yeah, okay, this is a joyride. And of course, we're forgetting the very beginning. Space babies didn't show up until later on in the episode. At first, there was the butterfly effect. And can we talk about the butterfly setting? Oops. So he's like, no, you will not have a problem. Don't worry about. But why would you step on a butterfly? Why? I love how that was the question. Why would you want to step on a butterfly and accidentally steps on a butterfly? Personality changes. Different, like, species and everything on earth. And as being, you know, I loved how it was, like, similar but different. And you're like, wait, this can't happen. This isn't. This isn't how the TArDis works and timelines work and they go back inside. Whoops. Butterfly setting. It was so stupid. It was fun, you know, like, yeah, the Doctor has a butterfly setting, but.

It also sets up, like, story wise for the new viewers that don't know the rules of, you know, because, you know, always, every time travel story has to have its own rules that. That you can follow, because otherwise everyone's sitting there going like, oh, why does this make sense? Or, why doesn't this make sense? So that kind of quickly establishes, okay, we don't have to worry about, like, the little minute details of messing things up, because you're about to see all sorts of things happen in the past, and sometimes they will affect things and sometimes they don't.

Exactly. No, exactly. It's sort of like, we don't worry about that stuff unless it's a plot point and we tell you to worry about that stuff, but then forget all about it because, like, we don't really worry about that stuff here.

They got it out of the way right in the beginning. Butterfly button. Done. We're set the whole season. You don't have to worry about it now.

Just real quick, before we move on to the devil's cord they highlighted in this episode. They shine a light on it. But what do we make of all of this stuff with babies and lost children and. And all of that? It is, like, very interesting. I think I probably said this last time in church on Ruby Road, but it's very interesting to me the way that Davies is sort of leaning into the new mythology of the timeless child. He's putting his own spin on it and folding it into the show in a way that I think makes sense. But I was sure he was going to do what he did at the beginning of new who and just completely ignored the new mythology of the tv movie where, you know, the doctor's half human and has all these, like, you know, weird powers and stuff, like the modus operandi of Doctor who, is that it's all true. You just sort of like, yes, and everything, but the stuff that doesn't really work, you just sort of never bring it up again. And that's what I thought was gonna happen with the timeless child stuff. And I'm really surprised, you know, in a good way, that he made it sort of the centerpiece of this new doctor and new companion. And the whole story seems to be directly inspired by that massive retcon that, for a lot of people, myself included, really fucking hate it.

I think it speaks highly of Russell T. Davies when presented a challenge, whether it be story wise or even within fandom, he doesn't shy away from it. Instead of ignoring it or instead of, like, counting from it, he embraces it and actually takes it by the throat, shakes it and makes it his own.

Makes it fit with everything else, because.

I think a lot of what we're seeing is, and this goes to stuff that I've read in the last few days, and since, you know, renew who has come out, there's a schism. There's always been a schism in fandom. There has always been that slice of individuals who shout the loudest but might be in the minority, but shout the loudest and don't like it. Russell T. Days, I think he embraces it. The fact that he didn't ignore it and is still weaving those threads is just great. It's really, really, really great. To which I really do hope at some point the half human part does come back into play.

That's a big thing because somebody wrote that in the nineties. They just decided, we're going to go down that road. The doctor will be half human. So whatever writer has, you know, control of the show at any given point gets to set the canon. And, yeah, you can just sort of ignore things and make them go away. I feel like, yeah, Davies is being very respectful because I think that, again, how many times have we talked about the Chibnall era? And not necessarily in flattering terms, but rather than just, you know, trashing something and saying, oh, we have to. We have to, you know, ignore that it even happened, it was, no, let's take from it. I can write something good with it. We can do with it something really cool. And then that better honors Jodie Whitaker because she did a phenomenal job. And I think that just needs to be said again and again because not only is she a phenomenal actor to begin with, if you watch anything else she was in is that she did bring a lot to the doctor. And you could feel her bumping up against the writing. Like there was a friction and then it, like, took the shine off of the show. And that's what it was. It was like, oh, it's about to happen. It's about to happen. Oh, the show took it away. The writing took it away. So to have the show now take, well, no, we're not going to wipe it out. We're not going to disown. There's a phrase disown those previous seasons because there's an association with the idea of being an orphan. Well, no, the idea of being an orphan, the idea of being a found child. The doctor's always been running. The doctor's always been on their own doing things and felt a little bit separate and different. So I can see how this plays into that and further expands the mythos of who and what the Doctor is. And that may be my only critique of how this could go. Is that doctor, huh? Pun intended. It's about who they are. This new background for him, as you know, actually, and she originally, as first found, makes it more about what. What are they? They're this other species that have regeneration, and that's the Time Lord gets it. That was my big complaint. We discussed it on other shows about, you know, talking about the Star wars mythos and it going into the. What about somebody, you're special just because of your bloodline, your your this, your name is something, and therefore you have the power. That's the danger with something like this, is that the Doctor was always making decisions and was the one to rebel against the Time Lords, against the Gallifreyans. And I don't want to see it become more like, well, the reason that all happens is because they're fundamentally different. I don't want it to go that way. I don't think Russell Davies is necessarily going to go that route because of his writing, particularly writing of queer characters across his career has always been one of, yeah, we're looking at those characters. They're different and unique, but they aren't who they are exclusively because of that. And therefore you can just explain somebody by what they are. The who is really, really important. I got a little bit of that even from the first episode. You get more of it in the second episode, devil's court. You're beginning to see the Doctor, though, actually, space babies had more of him talking about his past and those snippets and using the word genocide in reference to what happened to the Time Lords, which. Man, that's loaded. Not even getting into any modern political things, but loaded in the Doctor who sense of, well, he's the one in the Time war who sent Galilee away and wiped out the Time Lords, to use that word is also an indictment on the doctor in a way, even factoring in what happened later, it's really showing that no punchers can be pulled on this. The Doctor lives with the weight of what's happened in the past, but is now doing it in a way that's also like, yeah, I got to go forward. We're going to explore all of time and space. I'm finally ready for a new companion. Let's do this. And that's what the season, to me, seems to be about. The return part is getting back to that idea of the only way through something is to move forward or backward in time, if you can.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. I was also struck by the use of the word genocide for real world reasons, but also for the reasons that you said. I do think it's kind of interesting. Another Chris Chibnall innovation was the redestruction of Gallifrey and the net effect of that for the Davies era. The new Davies era, the re knew who is his old status quo, has returned. All those years of lamenting what he had to do in the Time war and being sad about the Time Lord's gone and finding the master, then confronting the high council and end of time, then locking them off in a pocket universe and undoing what he did, but they're still lost and searching for them, then finding them again, then leaving again, and now he's back to last of the Time Lords. I thought that was so, like, it's good for the show now, because it sort of papers over a lot of messy continuity stuff. It's just like, no, he's last of the Time Lords again. He doesn't even have to pay lip service to all of the developments that happened between Eccleston and Jodie Whitaker, because it's just the same as how he started. His people are wiped out, and Gallifrey is gone, and he's the last of the Time Lords. I thought that was very. I don't know what that is. I just thought it was funny. I noted it. I was like, well, he doesn't have the baggage.

He doesn't have extra baggage of feeling guilty that he did it.

Right. Yeah, right, right. That too. But let's move on to the devil's cord. Who'd like to start with overall thoughts? Adrian?

I enjoyed this one more. I think the other thing is, I tend to prefer the ones when they go to a point in history over the episodes where they're on a space station with a monster. So, I mean, I still enjoy those episodes, but, like, when I'm saying which episodes are my favorite, usually they're the ones where it involves going to the path somewhere. So I enjoyed that. It was. It was a fun episode. There was a lot of fourth wall breaking.

Yeah. I thought the fourth wall breaking was very interesting, especially because the other character that we saw breaking the fourth wall in the church of Ruby Road was misses twist at the very end.

Flood.

Flood. Flood. Yes. Sorry, sorry. She's. I think she's played by Susan Twist.

I think that's why there's always a twist.

There's literally always.

Yeah. So that leads me to believe that it's not just random, it's not something that they're just doing. I think it also has to do with the invoking of the pantheon, or these new gods, the gods of chaos, or however he referred to them. I think it's like Doctor even had a line about. I just heard it in passing. I have to. I should re watch that scene. But he made reference to something being diegetic versus non diegetic, which refers to music playing in a show or a movie, whether it's literally playing in the world of the movie and the characters are hearing it, or if it's, like, the music that only the audience hears. And I feel like the presence of these gods that are, like, mucking around with the rules of the universe. I feel like it's also extending to the medium that is bringing us Doctor who. It's making the medium of television break down. That's weird.

I think that's a good point, though, that, yeah, there has been more fourth wall breaks, because I do remember, I think when I was watching, it didn't click, but I was like, oh, another.

What are they doing?

This is not the first time they've done fourth wall breaks. And I was noticing that it's been more often. The diegetic, non diegetic thing was very interesting as a sound person. The part where the maestro comes out of the piano and is chasing them, and then they. They. The doctor uses the sonic screwdriver to, like, deaden all the sound. I thought that was a really cool moment, especially since in my sound classes, one of the things that. That we went over was how there was, you know, when there is literally no sound, the audience can't take it. Like, it's not. So I. It was interesting that they did include a hum. There was like the tiniest bit of background noise. It wasn't just dead silence. Sure. Nothing was happening on screen. And as somebody who works on audio that has already aired and is going to go to different countries and we have to spot check things, I was like, somebody's gonna get this and go. Dialogue is missing from scene in a QC report, but it's like, check your guide track. But it was actually just. Having that bed of audio in there helps with that also, because then, you know, oh, no, this is supposed to be like, this. This is. This is the audio. But, yeah, if it had been absolute silence, the audience would have been, you know, we would have been like, what?

What?

Just, you know, is this on purpose? And, yes, it is, but it was just. It was an interesting way to handle everything since sound was the overall thing. Super creepy. Climbing out of the computer. The computer, the piano. Every time the maestro came out of the piano, I was like, make it stop. That happened a lot. But, yeah, it was a fun episode. I liked how. How they incorporated the Beatles. I kind of guessed that that was going to happen at the end. I wasn't. I was. So it was. It was cool. And it was both of them that. That joined in. But, yeah, when the piano went out, I was like, oh, is it going to be a Beatle? And. And then I was surprised that it was John Lennon at first, since it was Paul McCartney that had the conversation about music with the doctor, but then he joined also, and it was both of them. And I was like, okay, this, this. That's clever. I enjoyed that. Oh, and silly little thing from the beginning when. When she asked, you know, what should we wear? Before they ventured out into the sixties, I was sitting there looking at it, going, actually, they both look like they're wearing kind of sixties styles to begin with, so they didn't really need.

I thought the same thing. I thought that that's what they were gonna say.

The big musical number at the end was odd, also, like, it was fun. It was a lot of fun, but it was kind of out of left field.

But, yeah, that seems to be the general sense from the people I've talked to have watched it. You and old fans were just like, yeah, it was neat. But, like, is that the gimmick right now that everybody has a musical episode, and they just sort of tack that on at the end here. And again, fun. But you do wonder, like, oh, okay, so I guess the world had lost music. So this is like bringing it back and also showing that the doctor does different things.

And another four.

I think there's a deeper meaning. I think there's a deeper, deeper meaning on these fourth wall breaks. I think the musical number at the end, I think that this. We, especially in this episode, by the way, I think this episode. I watched it twice, and I loved it even more the second time. Jinx Monsoon. Can I just have to say, jinx Monsoon stole the entire episode. Stole the episode. Josh, you can blur this out. I do this to the naysayers online. Screw you. All of you. Jinx Monsoon was perfect. Pitch perfect. They were fun. They were scary. I was. I'm. I'm not was. I am 52 going on 53 the last time, I think I felt this unease and this. This fear, but it would be like, this is a dream sequence that I would have as a nightmare. Was kinda when Tegan goes under, when she's dreaming underneath the. The twinkling, like.

Whatever wind chimes.

Things were in the wind chimes. Thank you. When she goes under and she is having conversations with herself and the mara, I thought that this. That. That feeling I felt when I was a kid preteen was. What I felt was I was feeling again with this episode, and especially with. With Maestro's performance and presence was unease. So uneasy. Like, at times, I was like, I can be friends with this. No, I can't be friends with this person. I like this. I don't like, this person was so conflicted and so unnerved. And for all the naysayers online, perfect characterization, perfect character, perfect pitch. For the absurdity of the. The world that it was. They were all living in. They're. They're in, I think. I think was. Was award winning, award winning performance, pitch perfect performance.

I hope we get more, I suspect, bring it more than Maestro going forward, because this felt like it was the introduction to the idea of the pantheon. And you're talking about the fourth wall being broken. You know, the whole Doctor Donna thing at the edge of the universe, they broke something there, you know, that salt line, the way something happened. And that not only allowed the Toymaker in, Toymaker then says, oh, the rest are coming. You may have gotten me, but there are the rest, my children. There's this idea that there's something bigger, and it does have very breaking the fourth wall, Deadpool sort of vibes, where there will be, like, these well done winks to the audience. You'll be like, oh, wait. Yeah, but this is like, the universe is literally, we're watching this universe now because we're sort of a pantheon watching it, and these, you know, these other villains popping up and doing things. And the maestro, what brilliance with that character, because you had not only a scary character, but it was an existential dread. It was a big thing because this entity was taking so much from us. And what the doctors sort of bring now is color, vibrancy, life and music to our lives again. And this is just a gray world where everybody is just sort of empty and not even realizing why. And every time they might get that little bit of inspiration and have some music, boom, it's fed upon. And, yeah, there's a bigger metaphor there with the idea of something just like, the moment you show it, it's fed and devoured by this monster. And I just love. They use the Beatles for that because, yeah, there's a moment, especially in british culture, really, you know, almost a peak point where it's incredibly, literally colorful. Visually, with the Beatles, you have the music that is just defining it generations to come, and there they are singing awful, like.

Oh, God. The performances for every song that they were hearing was, you know, every time they were like, what? What are we hearing? Like, the looks, the subtle looks on their faces in each room that they went to. And you're hearing these lyrics like, oh.

My God, it was brilliant because they were coming in, like, with such expectation, like, oh, my God, we're here. This is like peak music. We're at Abigail. This is going to be amazing. And then the level of disappointment. I mean, I've had this moment in my life, too, where you go in, and it's not what you expect and it's not good, but you keep the smile on for all, because you're like, this must get better, you know? This can't be happening. Oh, God, it's really happening. And that was them. They're like, oh, oh, no. Oh, no, this is really bad. And that's, of course, when you realize time has been messed with and everything is wrong and not the way it's supposed to be. Um.

I think I want to get a t shirt that says paraphrases. I've. I guess I'm paraphrasing. I've got a dog and he's not dead, right?

What a lyric.

What a lyric.

Oh, and just, there's a certain type of silliness that really works. The idea of the Beatles just being that mundane and that itself, it's not only silly, it's terrifying. You're just like, this is not the way reality is supposed to be. We saw a butterfly change Millie's entire species in the previous episode. That was funny. This was terrifying. This is like, well, they did that. And of course, he goes fully that road with, well, it ends up with a nuclear winter. Like, without music, without that, we just don't know what to do except just constantly quarrel. We're just so miserable and misguided all the time. And which, hey, I'll go off on that tangent. I think there is a lot to be said for the idea of vibrancy, of culture, of music and art, and how when that decreases, you are more quarrelsome, you are less happy, less able to relate to one another. So, yeah, that's a total core notion that I think he did really well as a writer there, but was also scary. It was also just like, you felt, like, lost it. And yes, every time the doctor faces a big bad, the doctor says the same thing. I don't know what to do this time. I've never done this. I've never faced an enemy this scary. And we all sort of roll our eyes. We're like, yes, you have this episode, so it'll all be fine. So you almost. I feel like they have to do that every time the Doctor faces a big bad and we just sort of have to go along with it.

Well, that's kind of interesting, though, because I agree with you. Generally, that's how it works, and that's generally my reaction. But here I did feel like it was different this time. You know, maybe it's because of having read what Russell has said in Doctor who magazine and in other venues, about how he's moving the show into this slightly more fantastic mode where we're dealing with gods and the old gods and the normal rules don't necessarily apply anymore. And in this episode, I really, you know, felt that starting to happen. I think it was starting here when the doctor says, I've never faced something like this. I don't know what to do. Like music. They stole the music. Like, how do you, like, how do you fight that? He has tricks and they usually work. That's how he defeated the Toymaker. But when you're dealing with an onslaught of these beings that are not constrained by the rules of reality, I was sort of like, yeah, like, how do you fight that? So I really felt like there was a raising of stakes in a way that I hadn't necessarily felt in a long time from Doctor who. But speaking of, you brought up the moment where the doctor shows Millie the future in this timeline. Uh, guy, were you also getting pyramids of Mars vibes? Yeah, yeah. Again, once again, for a new audience member to sort of explain, like, no, what they do here has. Has stakes. Like the same as, you know, Ruby, she was like, except music does exist and the world never ended. It's like, well, no, what we do here has consequences. So I thought that that was very effective, but I was sort of like, he's literally doing the bit from pyramids of Mars. I thought it was funny.

Pyramids of Mars, I love. I did read some, like, naysayers online that were like the rehashing pyramids of Mars from the seventies. Yeah, like when I was six.

Yeah, like, I am 52.

Can you imagine having to be a showrunner for any show? I guess you just have to just not ever be online. And I stay away from many of the reviews of shows like this because I saw, I did see one and as president said, in 50 years, and actually been a lot longer than 50 years, I've never stopped watching Doctor who until this episode. It was like the space babies or this one, I'm saying. So you made it through all the other eras with all the other complaints that everybody had and this was your breaking point and you think, well, they're probably a, lying and b, just being dramatic because they're making a grand post on IMDb or something. And it's hilarious to me because when somebody's like, this is my breaking point, and you say that, I don't think I've ever said that about a show. Shows have slowly fallen off my radar where it's just sort of been, oh, I forgot about that show, I just stopped watching it because it wasn't good anymore. But the idea of the breaking point, like, nope, that's enough. I'm out. I'm out. That was it.

Doctor who is dead. No, no, no. Doctor who's not dead. You're just dead inside.

Yeah.

I always say I like to like things. You know, I can find something to like in everything. Like, even, like, I. I didn't have a problem with the space babies. Like, it wasn't one of my favorites. It was more like we were saying to me, it was a little more middle of the road, but there was still a lot of stuff that I enjoyed, isn't it? And it was fun. But to. To just be like, whenever someone's like, ah, this is dead to me now. It's. It's like, no, it has this element. It has this element, you know, there's so many.

Just.

Instead of looking for things to hate, just, you know, find something to enjoy.

There's so much worse that should have sent you off years ago.

Like, time lashes.

The twin dilemma, like, the idea that you would start off a new doctor's tenure with him, like, violently strangling his companion is, like, not a great foot to start off on.

But can I just say that the twin dilemma actually happened at the last.

Season of twins tenure.

So you're left with months. Months until you get to, I think, attack of the Cybermen, which. Which is the first episode of Colin Baker's series. First series. So you're left with the Doctor wanting to kill Perry, and he's so. So now all of a sudden, Doctor who's dead. These idiots.

It's sort of the best part of it. And that's why I think that watching these two episodes, there were so many subtle moments where it was like, no, I'm going to say it in a really smart, subtle way, but I'm going to shove the point in there without it being poorly written. I think the ultimate offense is when you try to put a cultural or political issue on screen, but you do it, you write it poorly. That's. That's the big sin. So in this, you had the appearance of jinx Monsoon as maestro. Brilliant, terrifying first entrance. What is. What is that? Entrance? What do they. What do they say? Well, the question is, you're who? I'm them. And it becomes this whole, who is he?

No, they.

It was. It was Abbott Costello combined with giving the finger to JK Rowling. That's what it was. Which I know is part of the vibe that Davies is going for, particularly in the specials that we just saw, is basically saying, like, yeah, like, this is fun, this is silly, but we're also going to, like, use words in a way that, like, you're going to notice them. There's an importance. There's a powerful. This is a being that comes from under the universe, outside the universe, part of the pantheon, not from Earth. And it's going to be like, oh, you have to apply our standards to them, and you have to be this. It has to be that. It was just, no, I'm them. It's like, don't even. Don't even try to define me, mere mortal. I am so far, also far beyond that.

Harbinger says, this is my dad. And they always talk about that toy maker was my dad. But. But, you know, maestro says, they're, they. Who am I to quibble? They have a lot going on inside of them. I mean, they're not human. When's the last time you saw a human climb out of a Steinway?

It was. It was just a good way of, like, jumping right in and saying, we're not going to shy away from anything. Also, this is an actor who is known and famous for being a ruPaul, drag race winning drag queen. This is somebody who's in that. And again, that in and of itself, in today's climate, will somehow offend a whole portion, small portion of the audience. They're just like, oh, we don't want drag queen, blah, blah, blah, and just like, oh, my God, really? And Davies is not shying away, but he's writing well, so it's not just like, oh, we're putting somebody in there for them to be in there, and then it's not going to work, and I'm going to be able to come back and say, don't be. This is just, wow. The casting of Jinx Monsoon, a great character, great killer performance, good writing, and now I want to see. I want them to come back. I hope they're back for the grand conflict finale, whatever it's going to be. I mean, I don't know if I've heard. I haven't heard any rumors, but I also sort of do hope that toy maker comes back. I think that was sort of telegraphed. That may be happening, but, yeah, I want to see what happens with these big players. And it was just done well. That's the test for any show, regardless of the topic, regardless of the, you know, what genre it is, if it's good writing, and if it feels compelling, the job's done. And that happened especially with this episode. By the end of this episode, I was just like, yeah, I'm in. And I got a text from a friend, woman I totally quote on here. So he tells me that I'm about to watch Doctor who for the first time. I was sort of surprised. It was something I didn't expect from my friend royal. And he said, oh, I'm gonna do this. And then a day later, I get a text. I liked it. I liked Doctor who. Dot, dot, dot does. Does that make me a nerd? I thought it was the funniest thing. I was like, well, you just might end up a whovian. And he goes, a what?

It's funny.

So anecdotally, with a sample size of one. The show is working.

That's fantastic.

As we were talking about the maestro. Totally. I honestly, I think it was just my own misinterpretation, but I have not been reading all the kind of behind the scenes articles and interviews and stuff. But I had seen something saying the maestro. And at first I thought, oh, is this their way to bring the master back again? Because the name is similar. So I. I don't know. I mean, the way they handled it, it doesn't seem like that. But then the fact that they kept saying, the one who waits, I'm like, but who's the one who waits? And so I. I don't know. But it's just with a name like that and just the way they've kind of manipulated the master to think. I'm not saying, like, I hope it's the master, because I feel like they've brought the master back several times at this point. But I just. You know, it's one of those things that I'm like, is it? But I don't know. I think the way they did it, they didn't do that. But you never know.

They did take some time to. To educate Ruby in that. The doctor says that. That his. His race tend to gravitate toward one word names. Ronnie.

Titles.

Yeah, Doctor.

And now all of a sudden, we have this other group, now, this pantheon of characters. Toymaker, maestro, harbinger. I mean, what if maybe the Doctor is of the Pantheon. Maybe the Doctor is of this crew.

Maybe he is the one who waits.

This just came to me at this. This particular moment.

That's very interesting. Shades of the other and the cartmel master plan a little bit.

Yes, the other.

But speaking of the one who waits, my ears kind of perked up. Remember, we were talking, I think, on the giggles, there was that theory about who the one who waits is. And I was advocating for a theory that is not my own. It's from Elle Sandifer of Tardis, of Rudatorum is where I first read it. But the idea that the one who waits is Susan. And so when we had a whole scene where the Doctor was explaining not just to Ruby, but also the audience who Susan is, I was like, hmm, interesting. Something you would have to do at some point if you're going to bring Susan back.

And also, the actress, Susan Twist, has been every episode since the church on Ruby Road.

And there's always a twist at the end.

She's the twist. I mean, if you look at the credits, Susan Twist, the actress, is there.

So if that is how this plays out and it is Susan, and it is a twist at the end, I can't help but feel like Russell Davies saw that actor's name and the whole plot line story, like, just like, materialized in his head. He's like, oh, wow, okay, well, that's what it has to be. I have to put this actor in, and I have to do that well.

Because I love that in the devil's cord every time he, you know, in. Does everybody know who Susan twist is in every episode?

Yeah, like, I've seen, even though I haven't watched the old series, like, no.

She, no, no, she's character. The actress.

Oh, the actress. Oh, I thought you were talking about the character.

That's right, because Susan is, you know, Doctor Scranton under sixties, blah, blah, blah, blah. But Susan Twist, and I didn't catch this as a viewer, unless you read the blogs. I didn't catch this. But Susan Twist, the actress, was misses flood.

Mm hmm.

And then she was a, she appeared in Space Babies, as, you know, as one of the crew members logging her, like, dissatisfaction about what was going on. And then in the devil's cord, she was the tea lady in the cafeteria who, when she was speaking, she was speaking to the camera, but then when the doctor turned, she would turn around so he never saw her. And then they, you know, she would turn toward the camera, and the doctor would be toward the camera, and so he never saw her face, but she would, she always, she had, you know, she had a dialogue with, with them. But I think that it's very interesting. I think that, yes, I think that she was sought out by Russell T. Davies. It's so flippin meta.

It is very meta, which the show seems to be working in that register right now. Like, we were just talking about all the instances of fourth wall breaking. They literally made the Doctor who theme music, diegetic music that people within the show could hear. Yeah, there's a lot of meta stuff going on.

I think this is all a tv show. I think what's happening is a tv show.

I love that idea, like, with a giggle making its appearance again and that being the tv medium and how everything got shaped and manipulated by that initially, like, whoa. Yeah, there's something big and weird happening. And this is, again, this. This is what Russell Davies is known for. This is what Moffat was known for, was building to like, you know, that was Pandorica when. When masked bad wolf.

Bad wolf.

Bad wolf. Which was the sprinkling around. I'll never forget bad wolf. And then seeing in New York City people putting bad wolf in random places around 2010 ish, even though it was a couple years after the fact. I was just like, wow, I love when the cultural relevance hits that point. And that's also, again, like a level of mastery. I haven't seen it quite in the season yet, but if you do something like that where people are going to make that reference, people are going to put it out there, they're going to, you know, talk to each other about it, maybe make some. Their own art about it. So that's what I'm waiting for this season. And actually, we already have that in the maestro in terms of the aesthetic, musical chords, the vibes, liking that a lot.

When the maestro grabbed Ruby and she was floating in midair and singing before she went into Carol of the bells, she was singing something else. And I could have sworn it was some musical notes that were like a running theme through a season. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? It was very briefly when he first goes in and sees her up there and she's like, oh, you know, like, I can't even recreate the melody. But it was something. It was very familiar, but it was not Carol of the bells. And then it quickly switched into Carol of the bells.

The theme song for this is Gallifrey.

Oh, is it?

I don't know. I just know that, you know, murray Gold's back. I will definitely be going back to watch that scene a third time now because that's interesting. I know that the theme that she plays on the piano is actually her theme.

The other thing that you just made me remember is, so Murray Gold has a cameo in the musical number at the end. He's the piano player and he's credited, along with several other people who I guess had cameos. They're credited in the credits as themself. So, like, Murray gold as himself, it's another instance of fourth wall breaking. And, you know, it's interesting. Like, I had read. So, first off, I'm trying to stay away from social media as much as possible. I mean, some of it slips through. Obviously. I did dip my toe in, and I did get what you guys said. A lot of people were a little bit about. Yeah, that musical number at the end, that was a weird. Cool, but, you know, weird. And I read. Somebody said that in the script, it noted that it had to do with the residual energy from Maestro. Something along those lines that, like, the ripple effects of their presence was still there, and that's what led to that musical number, but that the toymaker with the.

With it. With, you know, with that echo of him being there. It's how you got the second Tardis pulling the mallet. Yeah.

Right.

Yes.

Still in a state of play. So people are still in a state of music. Well, that makes so much sense. I'm now embarrassed I didn't think about it.

So, I mean, it's not your fault. Like, that's a cool idea. But the fact is, it's like, it's one thing to explain that in a script, but you need to explain it to you, like, address it on screens. But, yeah, it is kind of neat to think of it that way.

I mean, were they really listening to music as they were walking across the, you know, Abbey Road and doing the big, you know, piano?

I mean. Yeah, well, I mean, I.

Magical.

Yeah, that. I don't know. Like. But that's sort of a. Sort of a catch all thing, if you can say. This idea of the state of play was still. Was still in play, as it were. Like, magic shit can still happen, basically, for a little while after. I thought that was kind of interesting, but, um. Yeah. Closing thoughts on these first adventures in series 14 or season one? I'm never gonna call this season one. It's too confusing for my own. It's too confusing for me. It's ironic. I get that they're trying to make it seem straightforward and not confusing, but for me, a third season one is just too much.

So far, eight out of ten space babies was great. It was fun. It was cute. Was it my favorite? No, but I have 60 years of who to, like, say, which is my favorite. Was it. Was it awful and terrible and. Oh, it's dead. No, some people are too dramatic. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm at a steady eight. Eight right now.

That's respectable. Space babies. As far as Davey's season openers go. I liked it more than new Earth. I liked it more than partners in crime. I liked it more than. I think Smith and Jones is really solid. But again, it's like a similar sort of a romp. Rose is Rose. It was doing so many other things beyond being a season opener so that one sort of stands on its own in terms of the lightweight nature of Davey's series openers, which, again, I think is very intentional. This idea that it's. It's more about the characters. It's more about, you know, setting the scene or setting the stage, you know, having a little fun. But also it's not monumental. It's sort of easing you into the new dynamic, the new situation, the new vibe or tone or whatever new ideas we need to get you on board with. So eight out of ten is very respectable. I just really loved it. I really loved both episodes. And when I did dip my toe into the social media chatter, I was, like, a little surprised. Honestly. I was like, oh. The sense of the reaction I got was, like, middling. Like, most people were like, okay, pretty good. And there were some outliers, like some people who really hated it and some people who really loved it.

But I think that the people that really hated it are the ones that are more apt to write about their unhappiness and, oh, no, for sure.

I think those people have literally written that same, probably that same copy and paste comment for every season opener or every beginning of every show, and yet they keep coming back. I think there's a bit of, you know, looking for punishment there and people who just also want to say bad things. I found myself there before with shows, and I made a conscious effort with shows, movies, art in general, to try to step back and not be the, I want to be critical, but not be the critic going and looking for, well, how can I find a problem here? Because we've been trained that way now, especially with all this prestige television we've gotten over the last 1520 years. Everything is about dissecting it to the point of forgetting why we were watching in the first place. So when I picked up Doctor who myself, I saw the nineties special. It was cool. It was another Sci-Fi thing to watch. I picked it up in 2005 and six with Christopher Eccleston, you know, coming back as the 9th doctor. And I watched it because it was fun. I found it, Josh. We were, like, talking about it all the time back then, and it was just fun. We weren't necessarily diving super deep into it yet it was just something that was enjoyable and then started taking deeper and started taking more into the mythos, more into some of the notions of it. And it's hard if you're back with, you know, season after season, it's hard to remember that's the show's supposed to be. And I think that's why he does space babies or does episodes like that at the beginning, because it's meant to remind you, we're gonna go deep, we're gonna go hard. We're gonna have dramatic moments. We're gonna have loss. We're gonna have grandeur, but it's also just supposed to be fun. And there's that tagline, the cosmic joyride, like, that it succeeded on. And we're back, and I think we're gonna see more of that in the season, certainly from the trailers we've already been given. Yeah, this is gonna be a wild, fun season, and it's not taking itself too, too seriously, which even, like, with the villainy and the scariness of the maestro, it wasn't taking itself too seriously because, yeah, there were the Beatles, like, losing their mojo, yet you didn't feel like it was somebody trying to be like, well, I am the expert on Beatles music and culture because wasn't there a lot of that out there? This was. They weren't even like, is this the absolute perfect casting? Is the absolute perfect accent and portrayal of John Lennon? Like, what are we gonna do? No, this was meant to be doctor who meets the Beatles. Things happen, and it worked. It just. That's what it was. We're not meant to obsess over it too much. Except, I think, in hindsight, as the years go on, like, that's been doctor who for me is I go back in time and I think, oh, man. Yeah, that episode was crazy, but at the time, it was just another fun episode for me to watch. And that's what Doctor who is working is, that you look back and it builds upon itself. You're not waiting for that gravity for every single episode. I think it would be exhausting for the writers to be, it wouldn't be a fun show anymore if they did that. But, yeah, you go back. Yeah, Pandorica opens, everything goes to hell, and they were building up to that, but at the same time, it was fun episodes that got you there. So I'm really excited for what comes next with that because I think they did a good job of getting it going. And we've already seen with the specials that it can go deep, that it can go heavy.

I think we might be in for some pretty dark stuff because similar to how we were talking about, you know, this episode is all light and fun and then there's that drop of yeah, but this is really how fucked up it is that in America they want to make abortion illegal, but they don't give a shit about actual living children. I think starting with this lightness and this fun, I have a feeling this season is going to go to some dark places. And I was just thinking of how they announced the titles for each episode of the season in that trailer a few weeks ago. And the season finale is called Empire of Death. It sounds like a doctor who, but I also get the sense that Russell Davies is going to say something not on the level of, say, children of earth, but sort of something in that vein where it's like he's not fucking around, he has something in his craw and he's gonna take us there. It's a very vague prediction to begin with, so I can look back on whatever happens and say, see, I was right. But next week, if I'm not mistaken, we're in for the Steven Moffat penned episode Boom Boom, which is my most anticipated episode of this season. I'm very excited to see the return of Stephen Moffat and his take on this doctor. Next week, I hope some or all of you will be able to join us to talk about Stephen Moffat's new episode for. Yeah, Stephen Moffat's return for the 15th Doctor. I almost said 14th Doctor.

Probably because you were thinking 14th season.

You're probably right. I was thinking 14th season. Anyway, I hope you'll join us next week to discuss the third new episode of this Doctor who season. Of season 14, not season one. Until next time, laugh hard, run fast, and be kind. Oh, I forgot to thank my guests. Thank you, guy, Adrian and John for having this discussion. It's always a pleasure and I hope you'll come back next week to talk more rubbish about Doctor who in season 14.

And thanks for having us.

That was the most ramshackle closing I've ever done, I think.